Spanish phonological observation

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
qemdrive
Niš
Niš
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:46 am

Spanish phonological observation

Post by qemdrive »

My Spanish teacher insisted that the phoneme /v/ does not exist in Spanish. That may have been true of Medieval Spanish, but listening to modern speakers, I have to respectfully disagree.

"Vive", for example, is pronounced /'vive/, not /'bibe/.

Clearly they picked up the phoneme somewhere along the way.

User avatar
Aszev
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:43 am
Location: í Svéalandi
Contact:

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Aszev »

It's pronounced [ˈbiβe]
Image CERVENIAN
Image JELSH
Miekko wrote:protip: no one wants to learn your conlangs. if they claim different, it's just to be friendly. this is true for all conlangers.

User avatar
Ossicone
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 222
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:57 pm
Location: Girlyland

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Ossicone »

Really with a hard /b/ at the beginning?
I'd go more with [ 'βiβe ].

TaylorS
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:44 pm
Location: Moorhead, MN, USA

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by TaylorS »

Spanish and [β] are allophones of a single phoneme. <b> and <v> are both pronounced at the beginning of a word or when preceded by /m/. Both are pronounced [β] everywhere else. The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.

User avatar
Ser
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Ser »

TaylorS wrote:Spanish and [β] are allophones of a single phoneme. <b> and <v> are both pronounced at the beginning of a word or when preceded by /m/. Both are pronounced [β] everywhere else.
But note there's some significant dialectal variation after /l/ and /r/ ("/r/" as a rhotic, not necessarily a trill but possibly a tap too). For alba some say [alba] others [alβ̞a]. For árbol some say [aɾbol~arbol] others [aɾβol~arβol]. (Myself I have in both cases, like much of Central America and Colombia —that last bit according to some study during the 70s well likely needing to be revised though.)

There's also dialects that have no lenition and use at all times, particularly the Spanish spoken in areas with strong contact with other languages such as languages of pre-Columbian origin or African languages in Equatorial Guinea.
The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.
/d/ has a very strong tendency to be [d] after /l/ regardless of dialect though.
Last edited by Ser on Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
alice
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 707
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2002 4:43 pm
Location: Three of them

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by alice »

TaylorS wrote:Spanish and [β] are allophones of a single phoneme. <b> and <v> are both pronounced at the beginning of a word or when preceded by /m/. Both are pronounced [β] everywhere else.


So, you could call this phoneme /v/, in which case your teacher would be correct, or you could call it /b/, when she'd be wrong :-) I think what she means is "Spanish does not have a phoneme /v/ which is distinct from /b/".

Or you could be one of those people who denies the existence of phonemes altogether, although I don't know what that would do to the correctness of your teacher's statement.
Zompist's Markov generator wrote:it was labelled" orange marmalade," but that is unutterably hideous.

User avatar
candrodor
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 57
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:17 am
Location: Germany

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by candrodor »

I've got to say though, with some speakers especially, what I would expect to be sounds very much like [v]. I know it's sometimes quite hard to identify phones precisely, especially in fast speech, but it is possible that some people's intervocalic /b/ could be realised with the lips more open, tending more towards what might more generally be considered [v] than a , right? Maybe I'm chatting complete bollocks.

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by linguoboy »

candrodor wrote:I know it's sometimes quite hard to identify phones precisely, especially in fast speech, but it is possible that some people's intervocalic /b/ could be realised with the lips more open, tending more towards what might more generally be considered [v] than a , right? Maybe I'm chatting complete bollocks.

"With the lips more open" would be more like than [v], since what distinguishes [v] is that the lower lip makes contact with the teeth. (Hence why this is called a labiodental rather than a bilabial.)

User avatar
faiuwle
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:26 am
Location: MA north shore

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by faiuwle »

On the other hand, your actual lips are definitely farther apart for [v].
It's (broadly) [faɪ.ˈjuw.lɛ]
#define FEMALE

ConlangDictionary 0.3 3/15/14 (ZBB thread)

Quis vult in terra stare,
Cum possit volitare?

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Torco »

yup, no /v/ in spanish, only /b/ with two different orthographies: <b> and <v>. though some radio casters and other status-speakers still make the difference in emphatic speech. Also, yeah, initial is common, but only in phrase-middle position, for me at least. I just realized that when I said [tol.'mun.do.i:.se.'Ba.ka] (todo el mundo dice vaca... yeah, I speak in photosynthetic Spanish)
Serafín wrote:
The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.
/d/ has a very strong tendency to be [d] after /l/ regardless of dialect though.

In fact many strings of C+voiced stop phoneme are realized as a voiced stop as opposed to a voiced fric. andar is [an.'da4] for me, not ['an.Da4], and angulo is ['aN.gu.lo], not ['aN.Gu.lo].

User avatar
faiuwle
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2007 12:26 am
Location: MA north shore

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by faiuwle »

Torco wrote:yeah, I speak in photosynthetic Spanish
Sounds like it belongs in the linguistics garden next to the germinating nasals.
It's (broadly) [faɪ.ˈjuw.lɛ]
#define FEMALE

ConlangDictionary 0.3 3/15/14 (ZBB thread)

Quis vult in terra stare,
Cum possit volitare?

TaylorS
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 557
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:44 pm
Location: Moorhead, MN, USA

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by TaylorS »

Torco wrote:yeah, I speak in photosynthetic Spanish)
LOLOLOLOL!!!

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Travis B. »

Torco wrote:yup, no /v/ in spanish, only /b/ with two different orthographies: <b> and <v>. though some radio casters and other status-speakers still make the difference in emphatic speech.
I presume, though, that they do not properly distinguish a /b/ and a /v/ even then in an etymologically-correct fashion but rather merely apply some sort of spelling-pronunciation; e.g. historically haber actually had /v/, and was spelled haver before being respelled under the emphasis of Latin spelling.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
Ser
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Ser »

Torco wrote:I just realized that when I said [tol.'mun.do.i:.se.'Ba.ka] (todo el mundo dice vaca...
Oh yeah, and then we have people who drop intervocalic /b, d, g/, especially /d/... At least I do it way too consistently between /a...a/ (aventada [a.β̞en.ˈta.a]), not sure about other positions.
Serafín wrote:
The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.
/d/ has a very strong tendency to be [d] after /l/ regardless of dialect though.
In fact many strings of C+voiced stop phoneme are realized as a voiced stop as opposed to a voiced fric.
Yep, after nasals. Though the dialectal variation after /l, r/ is real, the woman in this video at 0:45 (unclear accent) quite clearly pronounces turbio [tuɾ.β̞jo], but the woman here at 0:59 (from El Salvador) pronounces verdaderos [beɾ.da.ð̞e.ɾoh] (and also note firmadas [fiɾ.ˈma.ah] at 0:51 :) ).

I think they don't generally follow any particular behaviour when they are before another consonant. So un grado is generally [uŋ gɾa.ð̞o] but agradar is [a.ɣ̞ɾa.ð̞aɾ], at least in prestigious dialects, but in this world of dialects after dialects who knows... Maybe some girl fluent in Carib and a Venezuelan dialect pronounces agradar [a.ga.ra.ˈda] or something.
Last edited by Ser on Mon Aug 01, 2011 2:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Viktor77
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Location: Memphis, Tennessee

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Viktor77 »

Serafín wrote:
Torco wrote:I just realized that when I said [tol.'mun.do.i:.se.'Ba.ka] (todo el mundo dice vaca...
Oh yeah, and then we have people who drop intervocalic /b, d, g/, especially /d/... At least I do it way too consistently between /a...a/ (aventada [a.β̞en.ˈta.a]), not sure about other positions.
But of course, how else does one mock Venezuelans and Dominicans! :P
Torco wrote:
Serafín wrote:
The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.
/d/ has a very strong tendency to be [d] after /l/ regardless of dialect though.
In fact many strings of C+voiced stop phoneme are realized as a voiced stop as opposed to a voiced fric. andar is [an.'da4] for me, not ['an.Da4], and angulo is ['aN.gu.lo], not ['aN.Gu.lo].
This angers me as I have gotten to the point in my Spanish pronunciation where I almost exclusively use [D] and half the time drop it altogether. Now you're telling me I have to re-add [d] back in!!?? :x

[D] is a killer allophone though. Once you get your tongue to do it, it's like there's no going back. Half the time I use it in English and in French nearly all the time, making me sound like a Spanish francophone. And then there's using it in German and Serbian where it makes no sense...yet I can't help it! It's as bad as my use of French [R] in German....:x
Falgwian and Falgwia!!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

User avatar
Ser
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Ser »

Viktor77 wrote:But of course, how else does one mock Venezuelans and Dominicans! :P
A certain amount of dropping intervocalic /b, d, g/ especially in lower registers is very widespread IMO, it isn't associated with Caribbean dialects AFAIK.

Mocking them would involve both pronunciation (especially intonation, people love to imitate intonation when making fun of other dialects), vocabulary (especially terms of address) and stereotypes...
This angers me as I have gotten to the point in my Spanish pronunciation where I almost exclusively use [D] and half the time drop it altogether. Now you're telling me I have to re-add [d] back in!!?? :x
Why not have them, all possibilities, just like many Spanish speakers do? (Personally I still don't understand how some people here can say "in my 'lect we say (some word or phrase) like this: [(funny IPA)]". Pronunciation varies quite a bit across registers and situations...)

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Torco »

Well sure, variation, but if we both recorded the same phrase spoken by each one, we'd sound pretty different. You don't turn s into x~h or t4 into some retroflex affricate weird thingie only attested in like mapuzungun and two other langs. :D

User avatar
Ser
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Ser »

Torco wrote:Well sure, variation, but if we both recorded the same phrase spoken by each one, we'd sound pretty different.
I don't deny that, what I'm saying is that if I recorded the same phrase spoken in different contexts I'd likely sound different each time. There's no specific pronunciation that I say I use for e.g. cascabeles, but it varies between [kas.ka.ˈβ̞e.les] (or even [ˈkaːs ˌkaː ˈbeː ˌleːs] at that if saying it really slowly) to sth like "[kh̩.ˈka̯e.ləh]"... Then how can I say that I pronounce this word in a particular way in my dialect, as several users here do?
Torco wrote:You don't turn s into x~h
Yes I do. Just like much of Central America and some regions of Mexico —at least according to Lipski's Latin American Spanish.
t4 into some retroflex affricate weird thingie only attested in like mapuzungun and two other langs. :D
What would be special about this retroflex affricate of yours? [ʈʂ] for /tɾ/ is well reported dialectally speaking AFAIK though I'd have to check Lipski again...

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Torco »

damnit now I don't fell so special anymore

User avatar
Viktor77
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 2635
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:27 pm
Location: Memphis, Tennessee

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Viktor77 »

Torco wrote:damnit now I don't fell so special anymore
damnit now I don't fell like I can speak Spanish anymore
Falgwian and Falgwia!!

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Torco »

Viktor77 wrote:
Torco wrote:damnit now I don't fell so special anymore
damnit now I don't fell like I can speak Spanish anymore
rightly so
Image

User avatar
Ser
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1542
Joined: Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:55 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia / Colombie Britannique, Canada

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Ser »

Torco wrote:damnit now I don't fell so special anymore
lol You were right that *I* wouldn't do [ʈʂ] for /tɾ/ though. And there's always gonna be features special to your dialect, your intonation in particular. :wink:

User avatar
Xephyr
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 821
Joined: Sat May 03, 2003 3:04 pm

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Xephyr »

Someone should also point out that "Medieval Spanish" is the only kind that *does* have a b/v distinction.
"It will not come by waiting for it. It will not be said, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is.' Rather, the Kingdom of the Father is spread out upon the earth, and men do not see it."
The Gospel of Thomas

User avatar
Kereb
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 463
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 12:59 pm
Location: Flavor Country™
Contact:

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Kereb »

Viktor77 wrote:[D] is a killer allophone though. Once you get your tongue to do it, it's like there's no going back. Half the time I use it in English and in French nearly all the time, making me sound like a Spanish francophone. And then there's using it in German and Serbian where it makes no sense...yet I can't help it! It's as bad as my use of French [R] in German....:x
Stop it.
Stop it now.

You're like that kid saying /raikt/ for "right" or THC pronouncing both the m and n in "column".

Cut it out.
<Anaxandridas> How many artists do you know get paid?
<Anaxandridas> Seriously, name five.

User avatar
Torco
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:45 pm
Location: Santiago de Chile

Re: Spanish phonological observation

Post by Torco »

wait, what? so column is what, /k@l@m?/ [note: schwa is a placeholder for vowels, since I can't tell english vowels apart, and they all sound like schwa to me anyway]

Post Reply