Spanish phonological observation

[qemdrive]

My Spanish teacher insisted that the phoneme /v/ does not exist in Spanish. That may have been true of Medieval Spanish, but listening to modern speakers, I have to respectfully disagree.

"Vive", for example, is pronounced /'vive/, not /'bibe/.

Clearly they picked up the phoneme somewhere along the way.

[Aszev]

It's pronounced [ˈbiβe]

[Ossicone]

Really with a hard /b/ at the beginning?
I'd go more with [ 'βiβe ].

[TaylorS]

Spanish and [β] are allophones of a single phoneme. <b> and <v> are both pronounced at the beginning of a word or when preceded by /m/. Both are pronounced [β] everywhere else. The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.

[Ser]

Spanish and [β] are allophones of a single phoneme. <b> and <v> are both pronounced at the beginning of a word or when preceded by /m/. Both are pronounced [β] everywhere else.

But note there's some significant dialectal variation after /l/ and /r/ ("/r/" as a rhotic, not necessarily a trill but possibly a tap too). For alba some say [alba] others [alβ̞a]. For árbol some say [aɾbol~arbol] others [aɾβol~arβol]. (Myself I have in both cases, like much of Central America and Colombia —that last bit according to some study during the 70s well likely needing to be revised though.)

There's also dialects that have no lenition and use at all times, particularly the Spanish spoken in areas with strong contact with other languages such as languages of pre-Columbian origin or African languages in Equatorial Guinea.

The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.

/d/ has a very strong tendency to be [d] after /l/ regardless of dialect though.

[alice]

Spanish and [β] are allophones of a single phoneme. <b> and <v> are both pronounced at the beginning of a word or when preceded by /m/. Both are pronounced [β] everywhere else.

So, you could call this phoneme /v/, in which case your teacher would be correct, or you could call it /b/, when she'd be wrong I think what she means is "Spanish does not have a phoneme /v/ which is distinct from /b/".

Or you could be one of those people who denies the existence of phonemes altogether, although I don't know what that would do to the correctness of your teacher's statement.

[candrodor]

I've got to say though, with some speakers especially, what I would expect to be sounds very much like [v]. I know it's sometimes quite hard to identify phones precisely, especially in fast speech, but it is possible that some people's intervocalic /b/ could be realised with the lips more open, tending more towards what might more generally be considered [v] than a , right? Maybe I'm chatting complete bollocks.

[linguoboy]

I know it's sometimes quite hard to identify phones precisely, especially in fast speech, but it is possible that some people's intervocalic /b/ could be realised with the lips more open, tending more towards what might more generally be considered [v] than a , right? Maybe I'm chatting complete bollocks.

"With the lips more open" would be more like than [v], since what distinguishes [v] is that the lower lip makes contact with the teeth. (Hence why this is called a labiodental rather than a bilabial.)

[faiuwle]

On the other hand, your actual lips are definitely farther apart for [v].

[Torco]

yup, no /v/ in spanish, only /b/ with two different orthographies: <b> and <v>. though some radio casters and other status-speakers still make the difference in emphatic speech. Also, yeah, initial is common, but only in phrase-middle position, for me at least. I just realized that when I said [tol.'mun.do.i:.se.'Ba.ka] (todo el mundo dice vaca... yeah, I speak in photosynthetic Spanish)

The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.

/d/ has a very strong tendency to be [d] after /l/ regardless of dialect though.

In fact many strings of C+voiced stop phoneme are realized as a voiced stop as opposed to a voiced fric. andar is [an.'da4] for me, not ['an.Da4], and angulo is ['aN.gu.lo], not ['aN.Gu.lo].

[faiuwle]

yeah, I speak in photosynthetic Spanish

Sounds like it belongs in the linguistics garden next to the germinating nasals.

[TaylorS]

yeah, I speak in photosynthetic Spanish)

LOLOLOLOL!!!

[Travis B.]

yup, no /v/ in spanish, only /b/ with two different orthographies: <b> and <v>. though some radio casters and other status-speakers still make the difference in emphatic speech.

I presume, though, that they do not properly distinguish a /b/ and a /v/ even then in an etymologically-correct fashion but rather merely apply some sort of spelling-pronunciation; e.g. historically haber actually had /v/, and was spelled haver before being respelled under the emphasis of Latin spelling.

[Ser]

I just realized that when I said [tol.'mun.do.i:.se.'Ba.ka] (todo el mundo dice vaca...

Oh yeah, and then we have people who drop intervocalic /b, d, g/, especially /d/... At least I do it way too consistently between /a...a/ (aventada [a.β̞en.ˈta.a]), not sure about other positions.

The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.

/d/ has a very strong tendency to be [d] after /l/ regardless of dialect though.

In fact many strings of C+voiced stop phoneme are realized as a voiced stop as opposed to a voiced fric.

Yep, after nasals. Though the dialectal variation after /l, r/ is real, the woman in this video at 0:45 (unclear accent) quite clearly pronounces turbio [tuɾ.β̞jo], but the woman here at 0:59 (from El Salvador) pronounces verdaderos [beɾ.da.ð̞e.ɾoh] (and also note firmadas [fiɾ.ˈma.ah] at 0:51 ).

I think they don't generally follow any particular behaviour when they are before another consonant. So un grado is generally [uŋ gɾa.ð̞o] but agradar is [a.ɣ̞ɾa.ð̞aɾ], at least in prestigious dialects, but in this world of dialects after dialects who knows... Maybe some girl fluent in Carib and a Venezuelan dialect pronounces agradar [a.ga.ra.ˈda] or something.

[Viktor77]

I just realized that when I said [tol.'mun.do.i:.se.'Ba.ka] (todo el mundo dice vaca...

Oh yeah, and then we have people who drop intervocalic /b, d, g/, especially /d/... At least I do it way too consistently between /a...a/ (aventada [a.β̞en.ˈta.a]), not sure about other positions.

But of course, how else does one mock Venezuelans and Dominicans!

The same allophony between voiced stop and voiced fricative also occurs in <d> and <g>.

/d/ has a very strong tendency to be [d] after /l/ regardless of dialect though.

In fact many strings of C+voiced stop phoneme are realized as a voiced stop as opposed to a voiced fric. andar is [an.'da4] for me, not ['an.Da4], and angulo is ['aN.gu.lo], not ['aN.Gu.lo].

This angers me as I have gotten to the point in my Spanish pronunciation where I almost exclusively use [D] and half the time drop it altogether. Now you're telling me I have to re-add [d] back in!!??

[D] is a killer allophone though. Once you get your tongue to do it, it's like there's no going back. Half the time I use it in English and in French nearly all the time, making me sound like a Spanish francophone. And then there's using it in German and Serbian where it makes no sense...yet I can't help it! It's as bad as my use of French [R] in German....

[Ser]

But of course, how else does one mock Venezuelans and Dominicans!

A certain amount of dropping intervocalic /b, d, g/ especially in lower registers is very widespread IMO, it isn't associated with Caribbean dialects AFAIK.

Mocking them would involve both pronunciation (especially intonation, people love to imitate intonation when making fun of other dialects), vocabulary (especially terms of address) and stereotypes...

This angers me as I have gotten to the point in my Spanish pronunciation where I almost exclusively use [D] and half the time drop it altogether. Now you're telling me I have to re-add [d] back in!!??

Why not have them, all possibilities, just like many Spanish speakers do? (Personally I still don't understand how some people here can say "in my 'lect we say (some word or phrase) like this: [(funny IPA)]". Pronunciation varies quite a bit across registers and situations...)

[Torco]

Well sure, variation, but if we both recorded the same phrase spoken by each one, we'd sound pretty different. You don't turn s into x~h or t4 into some retroflex affricate weird thingie only attested in like mapuzungun and two other langs.

[Ser]

Well sure, variation, but if we both recorded the same phrase spoken by each one, we'd sound pretty different.

I don't deny that, what I'm saying is that if I recorded the same phrase spoken in different contexts I'd likely sound different each time. There's no specific pronunciation that I say I use for e.g. cascabeles, but it varies between [kas.ka.ˈβ̞e.les] (or even [ˈkaːs ˌkaː ˈbeː ˌleːs] at that if saying it really slowly) to sth like "[kh̩.ˈka̯e.ləh]"... Then how can I say that I pronounce this word in a particular way in my dialect, as several users here do?

You don't turn s into x~h

Yes I do. Just like much of Central America and some regions of Mexico —at least according to Lipski's Latin American Spanish.

t4 into some retroflex affricate weird thingie only attested in like mapuzungun and two other langs.

What would be special about this retroflex affricate of yours? [ʈʂ] for /tɾ/ is well reported dialectally speaking AFAIK though I'd have to check Lipski again...

[Torco]

damnit now I don't fell so special anymore

[Viktor77]

damnit now I don't fell so special anymore

damnit now I don't fell like I can speak Spanish anymore

[Torco]

damnit now I don't fell so special anymore

damnit now I don't fell like I can speak Spanish anymore

rightly so

[Ser]

damnit now I don't fell so special anymore

lol You were right that *I* wouldn't do [ʈʂ] for /tɾ/ though. And there's always gonna be features special to your dialect, your intonation in particular.

[Xephyr]

Someone should also point out that "Medieval Spanish" is the only kind that *does* have a b/v distinction.

[Kereb]

[D] is a killer allophone though. Once you get your tongue to do it, it's like there's no going back. Half the time I use it in English and in French nearly all the time, making me sound like a Spanish francophone. And then there's using it in German and Serbian where it makes no sense...yet I can't help it! It's as bad as my use of French [R] in German....

Stop it.
Stop it now.

You're like that kid saying /raikt/ for "right" or THC pronouncing both the m and n in "column".

Cut it out.

[Torco]

wait, what? so column is what, /k@l@m?/ [note: schwa is a placeholder for vowels, since I can't tell english vowels apart, and they all sound like schwa to me anyway]