Accents

[Declan]

I was just browsing through Omniglot, and I spotted a guest blog post on accents (here). The author says that he knows a lot of people who speak English with no discernable accent, and the same happened to him in numberous different languages but not Dutch. However, I, and a number of the commenters there, find that difficult to believe. I know lots of people who speak English perfectly fluently, and excluding perhaps one person (I've to listen to him again, but I know he uses unusual phrases occasionally) who's lived in Ireland in the same area for 15/20 years, I know no-one who speaks so perfectly that I wouldn't pick them out as a second-language speaker after a minute. Equally in Irish, from the foreigners I know who speak Irish, pretty much none of them can imitate an Irish accent correctly. I've also asked lots of Germans about Irish people (and one French lady) who speak German fluently, and some who have lived in Germany for long periods, and they all said, that after a few minutes, they could eventually tell that the people were Irish and French, although the French lady was the closest to sounding German.

Anecdotally, or even scientifically, have ye, as people who speak lots of languages, encountered people who have managed to get native accents?

[linguoboy]

Yep. Two people who spring immediately to mind are my Thuringian coworker and an East Prussian linguistics professor of mine. Both sound completely native to me despite not being raised speaking English. The only unusual feature to their speech is a somewhat over-careful enunciation (of the style that gives away Eliza Doolittle at the Embassy Ball), but I've met native speakers who have that, too.

(The professor, btw, was a fluent Welsh-speaker. He was apparently regularly mistaken for a native of Wales, but I couldn't independently verify that.)

[finlay]

They're few and far between. I've certainly met Dutch people that could pass for not-quite-sure-where-they're-from-could-be-American-or-European. Dutch was the example used in my Language Acquisition class last year when discussing this exact question – evidently it's easier for them to erase their accent entirely than it is for French people, although it takes a certain kind of dedication to erase it entirely and it's a rare person that can achieve it.

Conversely, I've gone to Holland and asked for a train ticket and not had them reply in English, which I'm told is quite rare. Of course, when they replied in Dutch I didn't understand and had to blow the whole façade, but still.

Also, my old supervisor, who studies Basque, told me that he'd gone to the Basque country and they hadn't picked up that he was a foreigner – because so few people learn it, if they come across someone with a funny accent, they just assume that it's someone from a different area.

[Matt]

There's a linguistics professor here who I assumed was a native speaker of English. I was very surprised to learn that his first language is German. He is a phonetician, though; maybe that gives him an advantage.

[Astraios]

They're few and far between. I've certainly met Dutch people that could pass for not-quite-sure-where-they're-from-could-be-American-or-European. Dutch was the example used in my Language Acquisition class last year when discussing this exact question – evidently it's easier for them to erase their accent entirely than it is for French people, although it takes a certain kind of dedication to erase it entirely and it's a rare person that can achieve it.

With Dutch accents it's always been their /s/ that gives them away, IME.

Anecdotally, or even scientifically, have ye, as people who speak lots of languages, encountered people who have managed to get native accents?

Yes, one of my Hebrew tutors. She's Israeli, but she's married a British guy and she has no accent at all. Her intonation is un-English though. Also I've been told I sound Israeli when I speak Hebrew, but I don't think I'm that close yet.

[Timmytiptoe]

Here's an example of a Dutch accent: The (ex-)prime minister speaks to George W. Bush. It starts at 2:00.

I notice /ʌ/ -> [ɔ], /ð/ -> [d] and some things going on with /r/. There might be some more things that I (as a Dutch speaker) can't hear.

[Qwynegold]

My uncle speaks Swedish perfectly. He's lived here for, idk 25 years. But I've heard himself say that sometimes he makes grammatical mistakes with prepositions.

[linguoboy]

I notice /ʌ/ -> [ɔ].

That's actually a notable features of the NCVS. I noticed my sister doing this last time she came for a visit. (She had [fɔ̃n].)

[Simmalti]

A lot of young Dutch people in Amsterdam have very good (almost native sounding) accents.

[Jipí]

You can tell that Balkenende is Dutch from next to no aspiration on his voicless plosives, I think. At least lack of aspiration is a notable feature of Dutch speaking German. For my ears he does that in English as well. Though Germans are said to aspirate voicless stops very strongly, so I might hear that wrong, actually.

[Declan]

A lot of young Dutch people in Amsterdam have very good (almost native sounding) accents.

I know lots of people with almost native accents, and lots more people with absolutely excellent accents that I couldn't pinpoint as being a certain nationality (which I'm told I have in German). I have rarely, if ever, come across native accents. Though, to be perfectly honest, I probably wouldn't notice as accutely with Australian/NZ or certain American accents.

I don't know do I particularly want a perfectly native accent. I like my present case of having an accent that is completely comprehensible and not terribly foreign sounding, but still retains a little bit of my heritage in my speech, just like I wouldn't want to change my English accent too much!

[candrodor]

One interesting thing to note, I think, is that some people I know, often sing with a much better accent than they talk. Obviously it's much more imitation then rather than individual production, and it's probably more practiced, but still. I know one German, his English is almost perfect, but his speaking accent seems to oscillate from Cockney to New Zealand or something. It's really weird. But singing, he's good such a good ear, I've heard him sing perfectly in a range of English accents.

[Travis B.]

Yep. Two people who spring immediately to mind are my Thuringian coworker and an East Prussian linguistics professor of mine. Both sound completely native to me despite not being raised speaking English. The only unusual feature to their speech is a somewhat over-careful enunciation (of the style that gives away Eliza Doolittle at the Embassy Ball), but I've met native speakers who have that, too.

The somewhat over-careful enunciation is something I do tend to really sense with L1 German-speakers speaking English, even when they still have a noticeably non-native accent. This generally seems to be absent with individuals who learned English in a native-like environment from an early age (even if it is technically still L2).

(Of course, then, I commonly notice this with many other native English-speakers, due to there being English varieties that are normally spoken more "carefully" even in colloquial speech than those I am immediately familiar with in Real Life are...)

[Simmalti]

One interesting thing to note, I think, is that some people I know, often sing with a much better accent than they talk.

I've noticed this as well! Even myself, I tend to sing in a better accent than I speak (my singing voice still leaves much to be desired though)

And what Decland said: I don't think I'd want to completely lose my accent, but I would like to have better intonation

[candrodor]

I also read an article a few years ago, saying (no shit, sherlock) that British English speakers tend to shift to a more AmE for singing. I wonder whether this comes across as "genuine" AmE to Americans?

[Bob Johnson]

I also read an article a few years ago, saying (no shit, sherlock) that British English speakers tend to shift to a more AmE for singing. I wonder whether this comes across as "genuine" AmE to Americans?

Got a video or something?

Hugh Laurie as House is very believable.

[Travis B.]

Somehow I imagine Hugh Laurie isn't the average Brit, though.

[MisterBernie]

One interesting thing to note, I think, is that some people I know, often sing with a much better accent than they talk.

I've noticed this as well! Even myself, I tend to sing in a better accent than I speak (my singing voice still leaves much to be desired though)

This is me and French.

And what Decland said: I don't think I'd want to completely lose my accent, but I would like to have better intonation

I think intonation is the immediate obviously non-native feature about my English (and also about my German), as I've eliminated the /w/ - /v/ thing pretty much

On topic in general, I've met a handful. The one that springs to mind was a Finnish guy I met in Lahti who I couldn't have placed anymore further north than the North Sea coast. The only thing that really gave him away as a non-native speaker was that he lacked some vocabulary.
The number of people with an indeterminate foreign accent is higher, though.

[Travis B.]

I notice /ʌ/ -> [ɔ].

That's actually a notable features of the NCVS. I noticed my sister doing this last time she came for a visit. (She had [fɔ̃n].)

It does not occur uniformly in NCVS-affected dialects, though. For instance, Milwaukee dialect specifically lacks this but rather has so-called* /ʌ/ > true [ʌ] without the rounding.

* The convention of using "/ʌ/" and "[ʌ]" in English linguistics is not phonetically accurate for most dialects, with most tending towards things like [ɐ]...

[Astraios]

Got a video or something?

Adele.

[Bob Johnson]

Got a video or something?

Adele.

That was ... not as bad as I expected based on what youtube thinks is related.

Rolling in the Deep almost passes -- I caught a [ʋ] in <crystal>, which I might not have had I not been looking for it. Hmm.. the vowel in her <could> seems a little high, maybe.. overall not much is odd. Reminds me of Fiona Apple's voice a little.

In Someone like you (live) her /r/ wanders a bit, and we do pronounce the <h> in <hurts>. But fairly close.

Cold Shoulder is very obviously Bwi'ish-accented though.

And then her normal speaking voice here... [v] in <whether>, [ʋ] in <grown>, a dash of [ʔ]s, stir well. Interesting!

[Travis B.]

I also read an article a few years ago, saying (no shit, sherlock) that British English speakers tend to shift to a more AmE for singing. I wonder whether this comes across as "genuine" AmE to Americans?

I personally would rather they sing as if their audience were British, rather than attempting to emulate North American English, with varying results.

I should note that there are certain things which to North Americans typically are an immediate tip-off that the singer or speaker is not North American and which sound very jarring when not expected, such as intrusive r, which in particular seems to be very hard for Englishpeople to avoid.

It would probably be better for Britons to just sing as they would normally and not try to affect sounding North American unless they can both sing and speak North American English consistently without these sorts of things - and even then, why bother in the first place? They are not speaking for a character, so it is not as if they have some character whom they have to be in their speech...

[Astraios]

It's actually easier to sing in American, I find, especially more slowly. Maybe because you have things like /oU/ where we'd have a schwa, and schwas are difficult to sustain without it changing to something else. I have noticed occasionally even singers who sing in English all the way through the other bits of the song still have /oU/ where you'd expect schwa + some kind of front high rounded vowel.

[Gulliver]

It's actually easier to sing in American, I find, especially more slowly. Maybe because you have things like /oU/ where we'd have a schwa, and schwas are difficult to sustain without it changing to something else. I have noticed occasionally even singers who sing in English all the way through the other bits of the song still have /oU/ where you'd expect schwa + some kind of front high rounded vowel.

How we sing and how we talk are different, though. I remember watching some horribly dated video in music at school about this, with some "famous" singer explaining how you don't sing how you talk… /i/ being merged with /ɪ/ being the one that I remember.

Flicking through my music collection, I couldn't actually find any English singers I'd say sang with Americanised accents.

A French former friend of mine had a near-impeccable accent. His accent was probably better than his English, actually, as it was peculiar use of words that gave him away. I've known a couple of Danes who have "now you come to mention it" accents - near enough to English to be given the benefit of the doubt.

Actually, my mother in (common) law is Chinese and has no such accent and is a "first generation immigrant". I'd say she had some sometimes Cantonese-influenced cadence or something. Then again, her family were rich and mobile and international and I think some of them spoke English at home, despite being mostly Asian. Her father was Japanese/American, I think, and her mother Chinese. Those three backgrounds in some configuration. They met in Wales, and settled in HK. Anyway, she sounds like she's from Sussex most of the time.

[Bristel]

I know a man from Holland that sounds Canadian... an almost Gregory House-like impression of American English. Too nasal or something. I can't quite describe the quality of voice.