Sociolinguistics wtf?

[Ser]

Yes. All sorts of different things. Poor reproduction of sounds (thus [θ] > [f] etc) that enough people do at a given time for it to become an accepted pronunciation, ease of pronunciation (thus lenition, anticipatory changes, assimilation and dissimilation). People change their speech to mimic a prestige dialect, too, obviously - there is a tale of some village up north where the local notables suffered from a speech impediment, leading to an extremely strange rhotic being used.

Wasnt that a myth? Not that we could ever conclusively know, but I thought it was just folklore. THere's a similar story regarding the origin of the Spanish /T/ for 'c' being due to the lisping habit of one of the kings ... but it doesnt make sense because they still contrasted it with /s/, it was just the "apical" sibilant that changed to /T/.

Funny thing is, I've never heard of this story ever, nor have my parents. I was told about it by some classmate here in Canada. I just PM'd Izo about it and he's never heard of it either before this post of yours.

Since even YngNghymru seems to know about it, maybe it's a thing going around English-speaking countries?

[linguoboy]

Here's a similar story regarding the origin of the Spanish /T/ for 'c' being due to the lisping habit of one of the kings ... but it doesnt make sense because they still contrasted it with /s/, it was just the "apical" sibilant that changed to /T/.

Funny thing is, I've never heard of this story ever, nor have my parents. I was told about it by some classmate here in Canada. I just PM'd Izo about it and he's never heard of it either before this post of yours.

Since even YngNghymru seems to know about it, maybe it's a thing going around English-speaking countries?

One of my friends claims to have been told it by his teacher at the Instituto Cervantes. I can't remember now where he said she was from, but she was a native Spanish-speaker.

[Ser]

One of my friends claims to have been told it by his teacher at the Instituto Cervantes. I can't remember now where he said she was from, but she was a native Spanish-speaker.

But maybe she heard of it in the U.S.? (Or wherever that Instituto Cervantes is located.) I'd want to hear a speaker living in Latin America/Spain tell me it's a common urban myth where they lives, gonna go asking around...

[CaesarVincens]

Interesting... are you referring to "like" as a quotative? Or "go?" (I grew up using both of these and later found it odd that this was considered a California feature.)

Both and "he was all..."

[äreo]

Hmm, even here in the Houston area I hear quotatives. "Like" is more common than "go" and way more common than "be all", tho.

[Okuno]

Hmm, even here in the Houston area I hear quotatives. "Like" is more common than "go" and way more common than "be all", tho.

Hmm, in Atlanta, you hear "be all" all the time, even among white speakers. Usually, though it introduces a quote the speaker think is stupid. I almost never hear "go", though, it even took me a bit to parse what was being talked about. Often times, you'll find "be all like," and that's I think less marking for stupidity.

Now that I think about it, you can also use "be all" when you're just trying to get through something quickly, like giving a book report that you just want to get done and don't care about: "Mark Twain was all 'I say cool shit!' and then he died. The end."


Ooh, and for the record, the imitation of media can happen, but I doubt it would really spread. I think that, since media is a monologue, you never actually get any practice at using media registers. I myself have attempted to imitate Elrond's retroflex /r/, but I've only managed to get it when I'm reciting prayers <.<

I think adopting mishearings is going to be more common during primary acquisition. I myself adopted a velar /r/ in many circumstances; it's been there as long as I can remember, and I haven't been able to get rid of it. I don't know how that would become a widespread phenomenon, though; even if it can be passed on genealogically, what happens when one parent has the mishearing and the other doesn't?

[Qwynegold]

I think adopting mishearings is going to be more common during primary acquisition. I myself adopted a velar /r/ in many circumstances; it's been there as long as I can remember, and I haven't been able to get rid of it. I don't know how that would become a widespread phenomenon, though; even if it can be passed on genealogically, what happens when one parent has the mishearing and the other doesn't?

A velar trill? ORLY?

[Ulrike Meinhof]

I think adopting mishearings is going to be more common during primary acquisition. I myself adopted a velar /r/ in many circumstances; it's been there as long as I can remember, and I haven't been able to get rid of it. I don't know how that would become a widespread phenomenon, though; even if it can be passed on genealogically, what happens when one parent has the mishearing and the other doesn't?

A velar trill? ORLY?

/r/ in /phonemic slashes/ doesn't have to be a trill.

[Okuno]

Sorry, I'm just too lazy to go get the right symbol, so I'm using /r/ as in a generic rhotic. I actually do it as a velar approximant. Normal for my dialect is an alveolar approximant.

As far as I can tell, though it's not like I've taken data, the only exceptions are after an alveolar stop, so that the stop-rhotic just becomes a retroflex affricate and at the end of words, where it gets a secondary retroflexion. My /w/, OTOH, has no velarization, just to help distinguish the sounds, I guess.

Oh, and the exception where sometimes my Japanese kicks back in for recitation, and I end up using an alveolar tap, but that's just weird 0.o

(But I can do a velar trill. Give me some practice time and I can get it sounding natural intervocalically. More impressively, bilabial-alveolar coarticulated trill, but that's just 'cause I've played brasswinds before)

[Qwynegold]

Oh, so it's actually just [ɰ]?

[Eyowa]

I can do a velar trill.

Post a recording? I have no idea what that would even sound like. Also, the IPA chart says it's impossible.

[finlay]

I can do something that sounds like a trill and is definitely articulated around the velum. But I think it's actually phlegm. Or possibly uvular.

[Okuno]

Oh, so it's actually just [ɰ]?

Yeah, I suppose... it's just looks fucking weird to write /r/ > [ɰ]
Besides, it just feels like it has tons of secondary articulation, so I'm hesitant to adopt anything.

I can do a velar trill.

Post a recording? I have no idea what that would even sound like. Also, the IPA chart says it's impossible.

Yeah, I don't trust the IPA chart that much... I mean, it's good enough, but then it fails. Admittedly, I may have a freakish tongue, since I've been able to pronounce apico-uvulars (not in connected speech, though).

The disclaimer is that I have not videotaped my organs, but when I stop trilling, my tongue contacts the velar, so there's definitely narrowing if nothing else.

Anyway, here's a set of velar trills with vowels, then uvulars with vowels. I was unable to counteract the vowel allophony, though, so the uvulars sound (I think) like a bunch of velars with the vowels further back v.v
I had to record it in two bits because my first run of uvulars was a piece of shit. They're pasted up in the one file.

Or.... they would be except that for some reason, iMovie doesn't want to export to mp3 despite the fact that mp3 is APPLE'S OWN FRIGGIN FORMAT!? Oh, it exports to wave beautifully, because that make a fat lot of sense. @.@

I'll post it when I get around to transferring to my other computer and working magic there. In the meantime, have a cigar: (^.^)y-..oo00O

[Travis B.]

Oh, so it's actually just [ɰ]?

Yeah, I suppose... it's just looks fucking weird to write /r/ > [ɰ]
Besides, it just feels like it has tons of secondary articulation, so I'm hesitant to adopt anything.

It really isn't weird in a Europeanoid language varieties with a single rhotic phoneme; the same applies with /l/ representing any single lateral phoneme as well in Europeanoid language varieties.

[Okuno]

It really isn't weird in a Europeanoid language varieties with a single rhotic phoneme; the same applies with /l/ representing any single lateral phoneme as well in Europeanoid language varieties.

Yeah, I know, but I just don't think about ɰ as a rhotic. Especially not when that's used (by me, now that I've caught it) for Japanese <w>. Then again, it could just be me that's weird.... FOR GREAT VICTORY!

[Qwynegold]

I can do a velar trill.

Post a recording? I have no idea what that would even sound like. Also, the IPA chart says it's impossible.

Yeah, I don't trust the IPA chart that much... I mean, it's good enough, but then it fails. Admittedly, I may have a freakish tongue, since I've been able to pronounce apico-uvulars (not in connected speech, though).

I've heard that it's possible, but too awkward for any natlang to have it.

[Torco]

Apico-uvulars?
*tries*
damnit, all that comes out is some sort of awkward click consonant
can you do an apical uvular trill?

[TomHChappell]

Apico-uvulars?
*tries*
damnit, all that comes out is some sort of awkward click consonant
can you do an apical uvular trill?

Don't try again; you'll swallow your tongue and the paramedics might not get there in time to save you. And we'd miss you.

[Okuno]

Apico-uvulars?
*tries*
damnit, all that comes out is some sort of awkward click consonant

A click? Now that's.... weird. But now that I try it, yeah okay... -.^

can you do an apical uvular trill?

Hmmm, now that you mention it, I can get a apico-velar trill easily enough, but an apico-uvular...

Don't try again; you'll swallow your tongue and the paramedics might not get there in time to save you. And we'd miss you.

Bleg bleg bleg bwurble...... bleh