Spanish impersonal se syntax

[Ser]

Here's an update on my pais vasco friend. He says he uses usted but rarely and thinks it sounds, in his word, extremely formal. He says he tends towards vosotros and tu form and avoids usted.

Also, he told me vosotros is only an informal second person plural.

And avoids ustedes too I suppose.

In Pan's Labyrinth, I swear they use it as an informal singular for children. Am I just misinterpreting things or is this attested to in Spain?

No, in Pan's Labyrinth they use vos with vosotros conjugations, something known as voseo reverencial. Spaniards in particular use it today as an extremely formal, old-fashioned-sounding way to address either a person or a group, written in solemn texts or education degrees. It's like if you said "Your Reverence" in English. Historically it seems that it was used kinda like usted, perhaps as vos was being pushed out of the pronoun paradigm?

• 1. VOSEO REVERENCIAL. Consiste en el uso de vos para dirigirse con especial reverencia a la segunda persona gramatical, tanto del singular como del plural. Esta fórmula de tratamiento de tono elevado, común en épocas pasadas, solo se emplea hoy con algunos grados y títulos, en actos solemnes, o en textos literarios que reflejan el lenguaje de otras épocas. Vos es la forma de sujeto (vos decís) y de término de preposición (a vos digo), mientras que os es la forma de complemento directo (os vi) y de complemento indirecto sin preposición (os digo). El verbo va siempre en segunda persona del plural, aunque nos dirijamos a un solo interlocutor: «Han luchado, añadió dirigiéndose a Tarradellas, [...] por mantenerse fieles a las instituciones que vos representáis» (GaCandau Madrid-Barça [Esp. 1996]). Como posesivo se emplea la forma vuestro: Admiro vuestra valentía, señora. Los adjetivos referidos a la persona o personas a quienes nos dirigimos han de establecer la concordancia correspondiente en género y número: Vos, don Pedro, sois caritativo; Vos, bellas damas, sois ingeniosas.

http://buscon.rae.es/dpdI/SrvltGUIBusDPD?lema=voseo

[tatapyranga]

Here's an update on my pais vasco friend.

There are at least three things wrong with that phrase.

[Thry]

In Pan's Labyrinth, I swear they use it as an informal singular for children. Am I just misinterpreting things or is this attested to in Spain?

What Serafín has said. It is often used in films to make them look old-fashioned, or in books either for the same purpose or because the book is in fact old or representing and older stage. It's, I think, analogous to the majestic first-person plural nos, which would be used by, say, an old bishop. Nos estamos encantados de veros (a vos). = Nice to see you (singular). - Note: I'm not implying someone addressed with vos somehow has to identify as nos.

It's not the voseo used in Argentina, which takes special second-person forms: vos sos, vos estás, vos comés, vos pedís... but it's probably related. The courteous old-fashioned Castilian vos is: vos sois, vos estáis, vos coméis, vos pedís, etc.

No, in Pan's Labyrinth they use vos with vosotros conjugations, something known as voseo reverencial. Spaniards in particular use it today as an extremely formal, old-fashioned-sounding way to address either a person or a group, written in solemn texts or education degrees. It's like if you said "Your Reverence" in English. Historically it seems that it was used kinda like usted, perhaps as vos was being pushed out of the pronoun paradigm?

I think its fate depended on the dialect, for example it's tempting to say that it's the source of Argentinian modern vos. In Castilian Spanish territory, however, yes, it was probably kicked out and usted was taken for formality. They most likely have coexisted long since I believe usted is quite old.

[Viktor77]

Here's an update on my pais vasco friend. He says he uses usted but rarely and thinks it sounds, in his word, extremely formal. He says he tends towards vosotros and tu form and avoids usted.

Also, he told me vosotros is only an informal second person plural.

And avoids ustedes too I suppose.

Yes, how he described it was that usted was a pain to use and he disliked it. He said he addresses people with tu who will address him with usted which makes for a very interesting situation. I don't know if you can attest to this or Eandil, but I know that I consider usted a pain, and ustedes is a pain in commands, the final -n makes for an annoyance before clitics. Diganmelo!

And thanks for the info about the old vos forms.

[Ser]

It's not the voseo used in Argentina, which takes special second-person forms: vos sos, vos estás, vos comés, vos pedís... but it's probably related. The courteous old-fashioned Castilian vos is: vos sois, vos estáis, vos coméis, vos pedís, etc.

I think its fate depended on the dialect, for example it's tempting to say that it's the source of Argentinian modern vos. In Castilian Spanish territory, however, yes, it was probably kicked out and usted was taken for formality. They most likely have coexisted long since I believe usted is quite old.

1. Voseo is present in every single country in Latin America except for Puerto Rico. It's way more outstanding in some countries (Argentina, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Paraguay...) than in others (Mexico, Peru, Dom. Rep....) though.
2. The different voseos are generally categorized with three paradigms: i. those identical to Spain's vosotros conjugations (amáis, teméis, vivís, sois), ii. those identical except that they lack a diphthong (amás, temés, vivís, sos), iii. another diphthong-less paradigm particular to Chile (amái, temís, vivís, erís/soi). (And as some curiosity, the original Early Old Spanish forms were amades, temedes, vivides, sodes. The middle forms amaes, temees, vivies, soes, with the /d/ dropped, are also well attested.)
3. Don't say probably, this is indeed what happened. Early Old Spanish had a tu-vos distinction identical to modern Parisian French tu-vous, using vos for the formal 2P singular and for both the informal and formal 2P plural. In the singular it continued to compete with tu and then with the newly formed (v)usted (<vuestra/vuessa merçed), giving different outcomes in different dialects, in the plural it either gained a different plural form adding -otros or was kicked out in competition with the newly formed ustedes.

[Izambri]

Here's an update on my pais vasco friend. He says he uses usted but rarely and thinks it sounds, in his word, extremely formal. He says he tends towards vosotros and tu form and avoids usted.

So he uses tu when he adresses a stranger? That's odd, even for a Basque. XD

[Viktor77]

Here's an update on my pais vasco friend. He says he uses usted but rarely and thinks it sounds, in his word, extremely formal. He says he tends towards vosotros and tu form and avoids usted.

So he uses tu when he adresses a stranger? That's odd, even for a Basque. XD

Not in very formal situations, but for the most part, yes. He uses tu with people who use usted with him which I find sort of bizarre.

[Ser]

Here's an update on my pais vasco friend. He says he uses usted but rarely and thinks it sounds, in his word, extremely formal. He says he tends towards vosotros and tu form and avoids usted.

So he uses tu when he adresses a stranger? That's odd, even for a Basque. XD

Wait, do you actually address all strangers with usted? Even those younger than you?

He uses tu with people who use usted with him which I find sort of bizarre.

? That's completely normal, even more so as you age. Once you get to be an abuelito you can pretty much tutear/vosear everybody while they address you back with a respectful usted.

[Viktor77]

Here's an update on my pais vasco friend. He says he uses usted but rarely and thinks it sounds, in his word, extremely formal. He says he tends towards vosotros and tu form and avoids usted.

So he uses tu when he adresses a stranger? That's odd, even for a Basque. XD

Wait, do you actually address all strangers with usted? Even those younger than you?

He uses tu with people who use usted with him which I find sort of bizarre.

? That's completely normal, even more so as you age. Once you get to be an abuelito you can pretty much tutear/vosear everybody while they address you back with a respectful usted.

Except, this isn't that. He, a young man, addresses older men and women in tu who address him in usted. I think it's more culture than anything. The older woman is Colombian, the older man is Bolivian.

[Ser]

...That's funny. I'd take that as rather rude.

Yes, how he described it was that usted was a pain to use and he disliked it. He said he addresses people with tu who will address him with usted which makes for a very interesting situation. I don't know if you can attest to this or Eandil, but I know that I consider usted a pain, and ustedes is a pain in commands, the final -n makes for an annoyance before clitics. Diganmelo!

[diɣ̞anmelo diɣ̞amːelo]

[Thry]

Yes, how he described it was that usted was a pain to use and he disliked it. He said he addresses people with tu who will address him with usted which makes for a very interesting situation.

This happens all the time in my chemistry class. My teacher will address us with ustedes, because, well, ... she talks like that. My (Spanish) language teacher switches all the time between vosotros and ustedes. I always use tuteo with them. I'm not supposed to, but...

I don't know if you can attest to this or Eandil, but I know that I consider usted a pain, and ustedes is a pain in commands, the final -n makes for an annoyance before clitics. Diganmelo!

And thanks for the info about the old vos forms.

Decídmelo looks better to you? Díganmelo assimilates better, but anyway I agree with you, I dislike usted(es).

1. Voseo is present in every single country in Latin America except for Puerto Rico. It's way more outstanding in some countries (Argentina, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Paraguay...) than in others (Mexico, Peru, Dom. Rep....) though.
2. The different voseos are generally categorized with three paradigms: i. those identical to Spain's vosotros conjugations (amáis, teméis, vivís, sois), ii. those identical except that they lack a diphthong (amás, temés, vivís, sos), iii. another diphthong-less paradigm particular to Chile (amái, temís, vivís, erís/soi). (And as some curiosity, the original Early Old Spanish forms were amades, temedes, vivides, sodes. The middle forms amaes, temees, vivies, soes, with the /d/ dropped, are also well attested.)

Interesting, in Galician they still have -d- forms. I remember going to Galicia in summer and, when we were in a room without windows a very hot day, a woman told me: Queredes que poña o ar? (Do you want me to switch on the air conditioning?) She knew I wasn't Galician, but... she probably didn't care, I understood her.

3. Don't say probably, this is indeed what happened. Early Old Spanish had a tu-vos distinction identical to modern Parisian French tu-vous, using vos for the formal 2P singular and for both the informal and formal 2P plural. In the singular it continued to compete with tu and then with the newly formed (v)usted (<vuestra/vuessa merçed), giving different outcomes in different dialects, in the plural it either gained a different plural form adding -otros or was kicked out in competition with the newly formed ustedes.

Nice to know then .

[Izambri]

Wait, do you actually address all strangers with usted? Even those younger than you?

Hmmmmno, I didn't said that. In fact, I didn't talked about what I use. It's a matter of age:

1. Older than me: vostè.
2. Younger than me, or the same age: tu.

More or less, because I would use tu with a seller or a receptionist, for example, independetly of his/her age.

*Examples in Catalan because is the only language I use.

[Thry]

*Examples in Catalan because is the only language I use.

Don't you ever meet any non-catalanoparlante where you live?

[Viktor77]

Decídmelo looks better to you? Díganmelo assimilates better, but anyway I agree with you, I dislike usted(es).

Oh, I dislike both but I don't use vosotros. [n.m] is harder to say though than [d.m].

I'm not sure which I'd use in my future classroom. I certainly can't use vos because textbooks don't teach vos, so I would use tu, but for the plural, I guess ustedes even though I dislike it. If I use vostros I feel like I'd have to adapt a castillian accent and I have a Colombian accent, plus I am not very familiar with the conjugations so...

[Ser]

Decídmelo looks better to you? Díganmelo assimilates better, but anyway I agree with you, I dislike usted(es).

I thought the infinitive was your guys' way to go. ¡Decírmelo!

[Izambri]

*Examples in Catalan because is the only language I use.

Don't you ever meet any non-catalanoparlante where you live?

I guess I meet some, but with strangers I don't know if they are native speakers of one or the other language. I speak Catalan everywhere (shoping, going to the doctor, at the subway...) and people always understands me. Native Catalan speakers talk to me in Catalan because I talk to them in Catalan, and native Spanish speakers talk in Catalan or Spanish, depending on their knowledge of Catalan, I guess.
And with my friends is the same: I talk in Catalan to them, no matter what language they use with me. For the most part they use Catalan, even those with Spanish as their native tongue.

A different thing is tourists, but here I use English.

[Yng]

And they say it's a different language trololololol

[Thry]

And they say it's a different language trololololol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Hn_mO7r-nc

I guess I meet some, but with strangers I don't know if they are native speakers of one or the other language. I speak Catalan everywhere (shoping, going to the doctor, at the subway...) and people always understands me. Native Catalan speakers talk to me in Catalan because I talk to them in Catalan, and native Spanish speakers talk in Catalan or Spanish, depending on their knowledge of Catalan, I guess.
And with my friends is the same: I talk in Catalan to them, no matter what language they use with me. For the most part they use Catalan, even those with Spanish as their native tongue.

A different thing is tourists, but here I use English.

I met a girl this summer who is probably like you, using almost no Spanish in her daily life. Like she had all catalan-speaking family, school, boyfriend, ... At first she was shy to talk in Spanish and she said she missed talking in Catalan. She spoke all right, but she thought she spoke bad (ok, maybe some catalanisms, but that's it).

@Serafín

Probably. But not mine. I only use it in iros (go!), because idos just sounds stupid. In Córdoba and other parts of Andalusia they really use an infinitive: callarse for callaos. Others simply dislike the d and go for *callaros, which is the most common option in my area. That gives rises to hypercorrections as well like *¿Vais a callaos de una vez?.

[Viktor77]

Can someone explain this thing about using infinitives as commands because I just watched this Argentine film and unless I'm crazy, they did this, and not just sometimes, but frequently.

Like, instead of ven, it was venir. And I'm not talking about signs that say no fumar, I'm talking about actual commands addressed verbally to others.

[Ser]

In written signs, cooking recipes and user manuals (and other contexts I can't think of right now, maybe) it's common to all countries to write commands using the infinitive. "No estacionar", "introducir la pieza X en el hoyo Y", "embadurnar las rodajas de pan con miel, proceder calentando la plancha o el grill...", etc.

However, in Spain, it's common in spoken language to use a form resembling the infinitive as the inflection for the vosotros imperative. Basically, it's the same thing, except that it has an -r- instead of -d-: ¡correr!, ¡callaros!, ¡iros! As Eandil mentioned, for some southerners the use of real infinitives is also well documented: ¡callarse!, ¡irse! This is very much absent in the prestigious dialects in Latin America (though I can't rule out the possibility that there's people who speak using these imperatives).

I'm not a Spaniard so I can't speak about how prestigious this actually is (the Academies plainly hate it, but reality isn't always in agreement with their view, just consider that almost every single publisher in Latin America doesn't give a f*** about their opinion on punctuation), but a friend who takes Spanish at our local UBC told me she often hears the Spaniard professors using it? ("Leer el ensayo de las páginas 238 a 245...", which I find amusing.)

About your Argentinian movie, I'm 100% sure you're confusing the infinitive with the vos imperative (amá, temé, viví, sé (<ser), andá (<ir) in Argentina). So you're hearing "vení", not "venir".

[Viktor77]

Ah, that's dumb of me. I need to seriously improve my vos. You say they use it everywhere in El Salvador? From what I've gathered from friends around Latin America, the only places it really isn't used are Colombia and Venezuela. I try to maintain a Colombia accent--Bogota more or less but my accent often seems coastal--but then I've also heard it has use in the west of Colombia near Equador. The only thing I dislike about Colombian Spanish is its frequent use of usted which I personally dislike. I know it'd be useful but I'm afraid to use vos with people and have them reject it because they don't expect gringos to know it, case in point, I've never actually met a Spanish speaker who used vos with me, despite several who come from vos-speaking regions.

[Thry]

I'm not a Spaniard so I can't speak about how prestigious this actually is (the Academies plainly hate it, but reality isn't always in agreement with their view, just consider that almost every single publisher in Latin America doesn't give a f*** about their opinion on punctuation), but a friend who takes Spanish at our local UBC told me she often hears the Spaniard professors using it? ("Leer el ensayo de las páginas 238 a 245...", which I find amusing.)

If the teacher speaks colloquially, probably. My language teacher obviously does not. The rest... probably. My friends do it most of the time, but not always. My parents do. But I don't. It just doesn't come out.

PD: You wouldn't tell whether I do it or not, because both hablad and hablar come out as [a.'Bla]. But I know the d-form is there because of things like callaos.

[Ser]

Ah, that's dumb of me. I need to seriously improve my vos. You say they use it everywhere in El Salvador? From what I've gathered from friends around Latin America, the only places it really isn't used are Colombia and Venezuela.

It happens in Colombia and Venezuela and pretty strongly at that, ask any Colombian about caleños and any Venezuelan about maracuchos. It's in Mexico, Peru and the Caribbean where voseo is very marginal.

I try to maintain a Colombia accent--Bogota more or less but my accent often seems coastal--but then I've also heard it has use in the west of Colombia near Equador.

Yep, caleñooooossss..... (And others too.)

The only thing I dislike about Colombian Spanish is its frequent use of usted which I personally dislike. I know it'd be useful but I'm afraid to use vos with people and have them reject it because they don't expect gringos to know it, case in point, I've never actually met a Spanish speaker who used vos with me, despite several who come from vos-speaking regions.

That's cuz you haven't met any Argentinians... In spite of its being so common, for much of the voseo-using world using it isn't terribly prestigious. In spite of the fact that everybody in El Salvador uses vos, from the upper class to the lower class, you hear TV and radio hosts addressing locals with tú and whatnot...

[Viktor77]

Two questions:

What is this? Excerpt from an Argentine cuento. How is this verb form possible? Shouldn't it be "lo adoraban?"

"Los indios que habían sido catequizados por el padre Espinoza, adorábanlo."

Also, can anyone shed some light on using the imperfect subjunctive as the pluperfect indicative? Is this common or literary? Are there rules?

"Pasado el tiempo que el hombre fijara como plazo, él abriría la puerta y lo encotraría tal como lo dejara."

[Ser]

Two questions:

What is this? Excerpt from an Argentine cuento. How is this verb form possible? Shouldn't it be "lo adoraban?"

"Los indios que habían sido catequizados por el padre Espinoza, adorábanlo."

In modern Spanish it would be "lo adoraban", yes. If this is an old text, in older times unstressed pronouns used to be added at the end of a finite verb when it started an utterance. If this is a modern text, then this is a deliberate decision to make it sound old.

Also, can anyone shed some light on using the imperfect subjunctive as the pluperfect indicative? Is this common or literary? Are there rules?

"Pasado el tiempo que el hombre fijara como plazo, él abriría la puerta y lo encontraría tal como lo dejara."

It's an unreal condition, but told from the anchor point of the present: "once the period of time the man had fixed had passed, he would open the door and would find it just as he had left it" (more literally: "passed the time that the man (had) fixed as [the] period..."). The imperfect subjunctives and the conditionals are future-in-the-past here. It does strike me as old-sounding, not because of the verb TAMS, but because of that "pasado el tiempo que..." thing.