French T/V Confusion

[vampireshark]

First some background: I work in a school with teachers. A lot of them. And the teachers are really nice. Normally, when I speak with them, I use the vous forms (and normally title + surname). While I am, technically, their colleague rather than a student, I'm much younger than all of them (probably the youngest person working at each school), so it feels natural to use formal forms and rather awkward to do otherwise.

However, one of the teachers that I work with made the comment that, with the teachers I work with, I can use tu to refer to them and insists I do, at least to her. I understand it, but... it's a bit strange to do so, and it makes me feel uncomfortable and as if I'm being unnecessarily rude. Especially since I would never dream of using du to refer to my coworkers back in Germany, and I cringed when I heard some of the students back in Swansea refer to the one lecturer by first name.

Hence, I have some hopefully quick, but potentially irritating questions:
1.) In what circumstances is the use of tu/du/a T-form permissible in, for example, a workplace?
2.) If T-forms are used, does that automatically imply permission to use the addressee's first name?
I'm mostly curious about Germany and France, but feel free to add in examples from your language/country.

[Astraios]

I cringed when I heard some of the students back in Swansea refer to the one lecturer by first name.

I firstname all my lecturers (in English and Hebrew - I say 'madame' to the two lecturers I speak to in French).

1.) In what circumstances is the use of tu/du/a T-form permissible in, for example, a workplace?

When they tell you it's okay, then it's definitely okay. Just V-form first, and they'll tell you which they want.

2.) If T-forms are used, does that automatically imply permission to use the addressee's first name?

Not necessarily but in a school where you're a colleague and not a pupil then I'd go with yes. If you were a pupil then firstnaming them wouldn't be such a good idea, even if they T-form you. EDIT: Also I guess this depends on what form the other teachers all use to each other - if they're all V-forming each other but telling you to T-form them then it'd be some kind of cruel joke which I don't really think is very likely but yeah.

[ol bofosh]

Something I'm learning with Spanish. It has tú/vosotros and usted/es.

I've never needed to use usted so far, and most of the time I hear tú, even between strangers. I've even called strangers in informal circumstances tú, though if I was in more formal or professional circumstances I'd be tempted to use usted. Recently my girlfriend used usted with an older man, though I'm not sure if it's because of his age or because of the circustances.

One thing I've heard a Spaniard do, that I would think was sentido común not to do - even for a native English speaker - was refer to a judge as tú!

And then my girlfriend says that if I were to meet her grandmother (lives in Geneva) then I'd refer to her as vous, and even if she said to use tu I should keep refering to her as vous.

[Whimemsz]

Something I'm learning with Spanish. It has tú/vosotros and usted/es.

I've never needed to use usted so far, and most of the time I hear tú, even between strangers. I've even called strangers in informal circumstances tú, though if I was in more formal or professional circumstances I'd be tempted to use usted. Recently my girlfriend used usted with an older man, though I'm not sure if it's because of his age or because of the circustances.

One thing I've heard a Spaniard do, that I would think was sentido común not to do - even for a native English speaker - was refer to a judge as tú!

And then my girlfriend says that if I were to meet her grandmother (lives in Geneva) then I'd refer to her as vous, and even if she said to use tu I should keep refering to her as vous.

This sort of thing varies a whole lot in different areas of the Spanish-speaking world, though, so what holds for Spanish-speakers in whereveryouare, Catalonia doesn't always hold for people elsewhere.

[jmcd]

I always use "tu" with the teachers here and they're mostly from Metropolitan France. I use their first name as well because, even if my age is a lot closer to the pupils' than to the teachers', like in your own situation, I am still more or less a colleague and definitely not a pupil. I usually use "vous" with people working at shops and banks etc. And strangers I see in the street, if I don't know if they speak creole.

[Rui]

I cringed when I heard some of the students back in Swansea refer to the one lecturer by first name.

I do this in the States. Not all the time, but with professors I'm sufficiently close with / have met with a lot. Especially in my school's math department (almost all the math professors prefer to be called by their first name by their students). Also I tend to refer to most of my professors by their first name when I'm discussing them with another student.

[Declan]

The only German-speaking environment I've worked in, everyone used "du", but that was artificial and in Ireland so it's not exactly relevant.

The lecturer issue is interesting. I've always used "Doctor .../Prof. ..." unless I was specifically told not to, just as I still refer to my school teachers as Mr and Mrs (or Sir to address), even those that were colleagues of my mother and some of whom I'd know quite well but taught me. I consider that a mark of respect and appropriate. However, many of my classmates would address all lecturers by their first names in emails and in person all the time. Most say nothing, but I've seen emails informing us that appropriate titles should be used at all times, and one Professor I know always replies that his name is "Prof. Surname" on a single line if he receives anything else.

[Salmoneus]

Referring to lecturers by first name always strikes me as juvenile - "look at me, I'm not afraid of you anymore, you're just some guy, I don't need to address you in a particular way, I can talk to you as though you're someone I bump into in the playground". Well yes, you can, but the need to actually do so says more, I think. Personally I would consider myself to have been theoretically on first-name terms with some tutors, where you actually build up some direct-conversation relationship with them and don't just talk about the class, but certainly not with lecturers. There are also some teachers from school who I might use the first name of if I met them again now, as a mark of affection.

That said, the question is a purely theoretical one for me, as I don't understand the whole 'name' idea anyway. To me, names are what are written down on forms so that you know who is who. The idea of actually using a name in conversation (first or sur-), in adulthood, seems to me to be very rude. If they're right in front of you and talking to you, you don't need to drop "Bob" at the end of every sentence - using somebody's name when they're already paying attention to you is just being an arsehole, Bob. [Usually being an arsehole to them - but sometimes it's being an arsehole to a third person, when you're excluding them from conversation - famously the nasty conversations between policemen. "What shall we do with this guy, Bob? Shall we book him, Bob?" - "Don't know, Fred. Maybe we should just hit him some more, Fred".] Obviously, Bob, I'm amplifying the patronising and smug quality of the device by repeating it more frequently than would be common, Bob, but still, Bob, I think that that aura remains even when it's used in more diluted form, Bob. It's like saying either "I know who you are!!!!" or "pay attention!".

You could of course use a name to call somebody's attention to you, but then that's rude as well. On the one hand, they're busy, and on the other, if they're far enough away from you that a simple body-motion won't call their attention to you (if you really need their attention), then you're going to have to raise your voice in a very rude fashion, disturbing everbody around you. And if you need attention so badly that you don't mind making a scene, a simple "help!" or "ah, excuse me!!?" will do quite well. I can't remember the last time I used somebody's name to their face.

The only case where I think I do do it is in a tight, friendly social situation where there are three or four or five people in close proximity in a room and I need to get the attention of one person, who is busy talking to another person, but who won't mind being interupted. But this doesn't happen that often (more often in such a situation I'll just barge straight ahead with what I'm going to say and let whomever wishes reply - so this only really happens when I have to politely notify one person of something that isn't interesting to anythign else - but that isn't too sensitive or personal either, since then I'd (if not waiting until we were in private) go over to them and speak quietly, so I would need to call their attention).

Standards also vary in the third person. I've a continental friend who gets horribly insulted if anybody refers to her with a third-person pronoun while she's in the room, and insists on being mentioned by name. To my friends and I, however, this is itself horribly rude - mentioning her by name to us implies that she's being excluded from the conversation (because we're more likely to need names and not pronouns if she's out of the room - so using names when we would normally use pronouns suggests that we're talking about her behind her back, as it were, pretending she weren't there).

[ol bofosh]

This sort of thing varies a whole lot in different areas of the Spanish-speaking world, though, so what holds for Spanish-speakers in whereveryouare, Catalonia doesn't always hold for people elsewhere.

True. I read somewhere that in Mexico they use usted for everyone.

[Astraios]

Referring to lecturers by first name always strikes me as juvenile - "look at me, I'm not afraid of you anymore, you're just some guy, I don't need to address you in a particular way, I can talk to you as though you're someone I bump into in the playground". Well yes, you can, but the need to actually do so says more, I think.

I've never heard anyone refer to or address a lecturer or tutor by anything more than their first name plus maybe their last name for disambiguation (in English). What degree did/are you do/doing? Maybe it depends on that.

If they're right in front of you and talking to you, you don't need to drop "Bob" at the end of every sentence - using somebody's name when they're already paying attention to you is just being an arsehole, Bob.

Come on, nobody does that anyway except toddlers.

You could of course use a name to call somebody's attention to you, but then that's rude as well. On the one hand, they're busy, and on the other, if they're far enough away from you that a simple body-motion won't call their attention to you (if you really need their attention), then you're going to have to raise your voice in a very rude fashion, disturbing everbody around you.

No. Say it's the end of the lecture and everyone's leaving and the lecturer's packing up her stuff and hasn't noticed you approaching her, but you need to talk to her quickly because you have to get to another lecture next, then what's so unacceptable and rude about saying, "Maj-Britt, can I quickly ask something about the exam?"

Standards also vary in the third person. I've a continental friend who gets horribly insulted if anybody refers to her with a third-person pronoun while she's in the room, and insists on being mentioned by name. To my friends and I, however, this is itself horribly rude - mentioning her by name to us implies that she's being excluded from the conversation (because we're more likely to need names and not pronouns if she's out of the room - so using names when we would normally use pronouns suggests that we're talking about her behind her back, as it were, pretending she weren't there).

That's just weird to me and backwards... There's even an idiom for not doing what you do - "Who's 'she', the cat's mother?"

[Gulliver]

Referring to lecturers by first name always strikes me as juvenile - "look at me, I'm not afraid of you anymore, you're just some guy, I don't need to address you in a particular way, I can talk to you as though you're someone I bump into in the playground". Well yes, you can, but the need to actually do so says more, I think.

I've never heard anyone refer to or address a lecturer or tutor by anything more than their first name plus maybe their last name for disambiguation (in English). What degree did/are you do/doing? Maybe it depends on that.

My French lecturers (who were French) who were largely in their sixties, told us to tutoyer with them and use their first names. All the teaching staff/professors at my university went by their first names (of first and last when there was confusion). Perhaps it was that it was a small department, so we got to know them all quite well, but I think it's juvenile to persistently call someone Doctor Carpenter when she introduces herself as Dora. Each institution, I imagine, has different norms.

You could of course use a name to call somebody's attention to you, but then that's rude as well. On the one hand, they're busy, and on the other, if they're far enough away from you that a simple body-motion won't call their attention to you (if you really need their attention), then you're going to have to raise your voice in a very rude fashion, disturbing everbody around you.

No. Say it's the end of the lecture and everyone's leaving and the lecturer's packing up her stuff and hasn't noticed you approaching her, but you need to talk to her quickly because you have to get to another lecture next, then what's so unacceptable and rude about saying, "Maj-Britt, can I quickly ask something about the exam?"

I'm with Astraios on this one; it's entirely normal to use someone's name as a way of indicating that you are talking to them.

Standards also vary in the third person. I've a continental friend who gets horribly insulted if anybody refers to her with a third-person pronoun while she's in the room, and insists on being mentioned by name. To my friends and I, however, this is itself horribly rude - mentioning her by name to us implies that she's being excluded from the conversation (because we're more likely to need names and not pronouns if she's out of the room - so using names when we would normally use pronouns suggests that we're talking about her behind her back, as it were, pretending she weren't there).

That's just weird to me and backwards... There's even an idiom for not doing what you do - "Who's 'she', the cat's mother?"

This reminds me of the pardon-what dilemma: "don't say what?, say pardon?" (what sounds common) vs "don't say pardon?, say what?" (pardon sounds like you're trying too hard to not sound common, which sounds common), so you should just give up and say sorry?.

I think the best thing to here is to say you if the person is even slightly included in the conversation, possibly with a little gesture indicating to which you is referred; or Alice here, Bob over there indicating that you know they may be listening. Both are clumsy, but both are inclusive and so are marginally less likely to offend, in my opinion.

[Whimemsz]

This sort of thing varies a whole lot in different areas of the Spanish-speaking world, though, so what holds for Spanish-speakers in whereveryouare, Catalonia doesn't always hold for people elsewhere.

True. I read somewhere that in Mexico they use usted for everyone.

No, *that* specific thing isn't true. Maybe for some people in parts of Mexico (I'll have to look it up and get back to you...), but certainly not most of the Mexican speakers I hear.

There are some places where usted is basically the normal 2sg form of address, though. I just forget where. Somewhere in Central America I think?

[Emma]

"Maj-Britt, can I quickly ask something about the exam?"

Ah, I saw your location and wondered if you went to uni as me! This name ^^ answered that question; I recognised it straight away, even if [to stay on topic] I don't remember addressing her as such! I took her fourth year course on spoken vs written French in 2007-8. Small world. ;)

[Astraios]

Ah, I saw your location and wondered if you went to uni as me! This name ^^ answered that question; I recognised it straight away, even if [to stay on topic] I don't remember addressing her as such! I took her fourth year course on spoken vs written French in 2007-8. Small world.

Oh how awesome! I did her second-year Syntax and Morphology course this semester, which I like a lot (but it is so hard to remember everything because she goes into such detail xD).

[Ser]

I always address teachers/professors/lecturers with usted, with hardly any exceptions.

1.) In what circumstances is the use of tu/du/a T-form permissible in, for example, a workplace?

At least as far as San Salvador goes, it seems to me that usted (the V-form) is usually the norm among white-collar workers, especially between women and men?, though you can use vos (the T-form, rather ironically, as historically it was the V-form in Spanish...) if you're especially close (like you go now and then to their house for kicks, etc.). Not that I have any serious work experience in San Salvador, but at least I've grown up hearing all sorts of comments of white-collar workers (especially my mother and her friends) about the oh-so-great prestige of speaking with usted at the workplace... It doesn't seem to me that, otherwise, people address each other with usted that much at the workplace though.

2.) If T-forms are used, does that automatically imply permission to use the addressee's first name?

Maybe!

I read somewhere that in Mexico they use usted for everyone.

No, *that* specific thing isn't true. Maybe for some people in parts of Mexico (I'll have to look it up and get back to you...), but certainly not most of the Mexican speakers I hear.

There are some places where usted is basically the normal 2sg form of address, though. I just forget where. Somewhere in Central America I think?

Yeah, Guatemalans, Costa Ricans, some Colombians. It sounds terrible for people who don't have ustedeo though. Back when I was in school in San Salvador (El Salvador), we had a new classmate who had moved from San José (Costa Rica), and she would address all of us with usted. We ended up insisting her to learn to use vos like we did, because it was so annoying...

[Whimemsz]

[Gah, ninja'd by Serafin. Oh well....]

Okay, so the (very broad and basic, obv.) answer, according to John Lipski's Latin American Spanish (1994), is:

In much of Colombia, usted is used as the normal and neutral form of address, including between family members, etc., and in some eastern highlands areas, tú is learned in school but essentially never used. Lipski also reports that "some highland dialects, particularly in the eastern Andean region (Boyacá, Cundinamarca, etc.)" commonly use su mercé (lit. "your grace") as another form of address (this is of course parallel to the etymological origin of usted: vuestra merced "your grace"). He goes on: "At the family level, su mercé conveys a special nuance of tenderness and solidarity, in relationships which are normally characterized by mutual usted: parents to children, among siblings, etc. ... In the marketplace, su mercé may be used by vendors to clients, in an attempt to demonstrate that their prices and wares are to be trusted; according to typical patterns of address ... the buyer ... retains the neutral usted" (pp. 213-14)

In Costa Rica as in much of Latin America, vos is used as the familiar 2sg pronoun, but Lipski also describes "the use of usted even among close friends or family members" (pg. 224)

"Cuban Spanish uniformly uses tú for the familiar pronoun. In contemporary usage, this treatment is extended to first-time acquaintances in circumstances where usted would be common in other Spanish dialects" (pg. 233)

Lipski describes the situation for El Salvadoran Spanish as follows (pg. 259; but Serafin may be able to add to or correct this): "Vos remains the pronoun of maximum familiarity and solidarity, while usted expresses distance and respect. Tú, when used, corresponds to an intermediate level, expressing familiarity but not confianza or deep trust. ... Rural and working class Salvadorians do not make use of the distinction, using vos and more frequently usted in all circumstances." He also says that urban educated Salvadorians often use tú with other Salvadorians, even though it is "a term usually reserved only when speaking to non-Central Americans." Even though that doesn't make any friggin sense given the other statement I just quoted.

"Among the working classes and rural dwellers" of Honduras, "use of usted predominates. Children of these groups are referred to as usted when they are young, so that the respectful form of address will be learned first" (pg. 272).

In Nicaraguan Spanish (which is voseante, i.e. vos is used instead of tú), speakers "freely use vos with casual acquaintances, giving them the reputation of being confianzudos 'overly familiar'" (pg. 292).

Among some rural Panamanian speakers, there is a "tenacious use of usted even among close friends and family members" (pg. 300).

Finally, in Venezuela, speakers in the Andean region "reserve vos for social inferiors and children, and use of usted even among family members and close friends is the rule" (pg. 351).

Otherwise, the basic "standard" usage of tú vs. usted seems to apply (although as noted, in very many areas vos is used instead of or in addition to tú)

[Ser]

Lipski describes the situation for El Salvadoran Spanish as follows (pg. 259; but Serafin may be able to add to or correct this): "Vos remains the pronoun of maximum familiarity and solidarity, while usted expresses distance and respect. Tú, when used, corresponds to an intermediate level, expressing familiarity but not confianza or deep trust. ... Rural and working class Salvadorians do not make use of the distinction, using vos and more frequently usted in all circumstances." He also says that tú is used by urban educated Salvadorians often use tú with other Salvadorians, even though it is "a term usually reserved only when speaking to non-Central Americans."

Yeah, I think I've discussed what Lipski says about my dialect in the past here (one of the very few who have said anything about my dialect at all, in fact...), and all of that is basically right. As for his self-contradiction, a good number of urban Salvadorans do use tú with other Salvadorans... My uncles and I sometimes use it with each other, for example (familiar, but not of confianza, yep).

[Ars Lande]

1.) In what circumstances is the use of tu/du/a T-form permissible in, for example, a workplace?

Usually, people use tu with their colleagues. This includes your boss and even your boss's boss, provided you see him at least semi-regularly. It's more prudent to use vous with the company CEO or head ktuvok, though even he or she might insist on using tu.
(In your case, you'd say tu to the teachers, probably with the proviseur/principal as well, and vous with the inspecteur)
Of course, this means you have to say tu to people old enough to be your father, and implies some familiarity you'd sometimes rather not have. If that's any consolation, that's awkward for everyone. (it certainly was for me when I got out of school and got my first job).

In your case, however, you shouldn't fret too much: use tu with everyone: that's just a show of friendliness. Vous or, even worse, vous + title + surname probably makes your colleagues feel old

2.) If T-forms are used, does that automatically imply permission to use the addressee's first name?
I'm mostly curious about Germany and France, but feel free to add in examples from your language/country.

Usually, yes. The possibilities are, in order of decreasing formality:

1. vous + title + surname
2. vous + lastname
3. tu + first name.

I don't know how old your students are, but if you teach teenages, they might address you as tu + title. Don't imitate them: it will make you sound like a dumb teenager.
Another possibility is vous + last name alone, but frankly, I find that one a little rude.

[dunomapuka]

Oddly, while I was reading Sal's post a guy sitting next to me got a phone call and answered, "Hi Bob, how are you?"

[Bob Johnson]

Oddly, while I was reading Sal's post a guy sitting next to me got a phone call and answered, "Hi Bob, how are you?"

Oh, you saw Fred? How does he look these days?

[ol bofosh]

I read somewhere that in Mexico they use usted for everyone.

No, *that* specific thing isn't true. Maybe for some people in parts of Mexico (I'll have to look it up and get back to you...), but certainly not most of the Mexican speakers I hear.

There are some places where usted is basically the normal 2sg form of address, though. I just forget where. Somewhere in Central America I think?

Yeah, Guatemalans, Costa Ricans, some Colombians. It sounds terrible for people who don't have ustedeo though. Back when I was in school in San Salvador (El Salvador), we had a new classmate who had moved from San José (Costa Rica), and she would address all of us with usted. We ended up insisting her to learn to use vos like we did, because it was so annoying...

There we go. I knew I'd read something about it somewhere, and that it had to do with Spanish over the "pond" (Atlantic). Thanks for that.

I'm so used to having one "you". "You" could be a little kid, a venerable pensioner or a music band. Having more than one "you" certainly opens up the perspective of what "you" is.

Just remembered something from Scottish Gaelic; it has the tu/vous distinction as well. With its own "tu" being thu and "vous" being sibh. I remember in the text book the distinction was formal/informal and also to signify speaking to an older or younger person. Though how it is actually used outside of my text book I couldn't tell you.

[hwhatting]

Hence, I have some hopefully quick, but potentially irritating questions:
1.) In what circumstances is the use of tu/du/a T-form permissible in, for example, a workplace?
2.) If T-forms are used, does that automatically imply permission to use the addressee's first name?
I'm mostly curious about Germany and France, but feel free to add in examples from your language/country.

In Germany:
1) Is all over the place. Sometimes it's a question of company policy (like at IKEA, where du is the norm). In general, the younger the overall workforce and the 'hipper" (for want of a better word) the environmnt, the more probable is overall use of the informal pronoun. The first good rule is to start with Sie and then find out how everyone is doing it; the second good rule is that the transition to the informal pronoun is normally offered by the older or hierarchically senior side and that if someone offers the switch, they're bound to feel insulted if you decline. If there's no big age or hierarchy difference and you see that most, but not all, people are on du, it's best to wait until you know people better. Any occasion where you have drinks with a colleague is a good occasion to switch to the informal pronoun. Similar rules are valid with people you meet often due to shared interests or activities (e.g. at clubs or similar groups). With strangers or with staff in supermarkets, restaurants, authorities etc. you always use the formal pronouns, although at some establishments (mostly oriented towards a young clientele) du is the norm - if a barman or waiter or someone in a similar function uses the informal pronoun with you and everyone else, you can confidently do the same with them. At university, du is the norm among students; with (and among) the teaching staff, the general rules apply. With children you always use du.
2) The general rule - a) Sie combines with title + last name (only bosses and higher-ranking persons in the army can get away with the rudeness of using the last name without Herr / Frau), b) du with first names. c) Sie + first names you'll see only in dubbings of American films and perhaps in situations when speaking German with an Anglo with whom you're on first-name terms but don't feel comfortable using du with. d) Title + last name but using du is done by kindergarten and elementary school children, mostly with teachers; it's also frequent among less educated people in Northern Germany with people you see on a regular basis, e.g. colleagues. Best use only a) and b).