Your Native Language

[Turtlehead]

Native language: English
Ancestral languages: English, Welsh, possibly dutch

[*Ceresz]

Native: English
Ancestral: Cantonese, Tagalog, Hokkien, German, (English)

All of the above except German are/were natively spoken by my grandparents, but their kids were apparently under intense pressure to be "white." Shame.

Your username means "the lanterns" .

[Lyktorna]

Native: English
Ancestral: Cantonese, Tagalog, Hokkien, German, (English)

All of the above except German are/were natively spoken by my grandparents, but their kids were apparently under intense pressure to be "white." Shame.

Your username means "the lanterns" .

Indeed.

When I first learned about -Vr + -en > -Vrna for PL.DEF, I looked at it and thought "that's hot." (Well, as those things go.)

[Bristel]

Native: English
Ancestral: Cantonese, Tagalog, Hokkien, German, (English)

All of the above except German are/were natively spoken by my grandparents, but their kids were apparently under intense pressure to be "white." Shame.

Your username means "the lanterns" .

Indeed.

When I first learned about -Vr + -en > -Vrna for PL.DEF, I looked at it and thought "that's hot." (Well, as those things go.)

Welcome to the ZBB.

Is your interest solely in Linguistics or in constructed languages as well? (silly question)

[Lyktorna]

Native: English
Ancestral: Cantonese, Tagalog, Hokkien, German, (English)

All of the above except German are/were natively spoken by my grandparents, but their kids were apparently under intense pressure to be "white." Shame.

Your username means "the lanterns" .

Indeed.

When I first learned about -Vr + -en > -Vrna for PL.DEF, I looked at it and thought "that's hot." (Well, as those things go.)

Welcome to the ZBB.

Is your interest solely in Linguistics or in constructed languages as well? (silly question)

Both. (yes)

[Sevly]

• native lang
• languages we were brought up with
• mother tongues
• languages of our heritage

Let's suppose that I am slow witted. What is the difference between the above four? I don't quite get it from Asahi's post.

Okay. Here's a perspective from a person who has some very good reasons to make subtle distinctions between all four of these. I was born in Kenya and lived there for the first four years of my life, during which my parents, family friends, and agemates spoke to me in primarily two languages: Swahili, one of the official national languages, and Kimeru, the particular language of my ethnic group or tribe. My teachers, on the other hand, spoke to me exclusively in English, which is the other official language and the de facto language of "serious stuff" like business and academics, a legacy of Kenya's former status as a British colony and a state of affairs which is reaffirmed by English's continuing dominance as a lingua franca in this increasingly globalized world. So the languages I was brought up with up include Kimeru, Swahili, and English, in decreasing order of prototypicalness to the category.

At four years of age, I moved to Canada, where English and French are the official languages, and in particular we moved to English-speaking Canada, which of course made sense since my parents were quite fluent in the language. Still, I had only really begun to learn English in preschool back in Kenya, and was somewhat behind the curve for the kindergarten classes I was being thrown into. To help us learn the language more quickly, my parents made the fateful decision to speak to my sister and I exclusively in English. It worked. A four-year-old placed in a monolingual environment quickly becomes proficient in that language and that language only. So I now speak English like a perfect native, unlike my parents and most other Kenyans who have a discernable accent, but to this day have no significant competency whatsoever in either Swahili or Kimeru. And so despite that fact that those languages are undeniably the languages that I grew up with during my formative years, it's preposterous to call anything but English my native language. Of the four, native language is the term that most universally carries connotations of proficiency, to the point where it is not unheard of to apply it to an L2 which is spoken with L1-like competency.

Which language then should be my mother tongue? It would be etymologically ironic to choose English, as one would have to when using the term synonymously with native language or L1, given the fact that English is an L2 for my parents and I didn't really start learning it until I went to school. Of course, it is erroneous to adhere too closely to the origins of a word or phrase (which begs the question why so many prescriptivists do), but as Wikipedia so helpfully notes, it is common and current practice in many countries including Kenya to define mother tongue as the language of your tribe, which is most likely the one you learnt first but not necessarily the one you now speak best (or at all). Wikipedia even provides the definitive example of a person saying that they "have no apologies for not learning my mother tongue", which is a non-sequitur unless it is understood that one's mother tongue, as used here, is distinct from one's L1. The statement is not a contrived example; tribal identity is a big thing in Kenya—it was the main cause of the brutality that followed the disputed 2007 presidential elections—and so is the growing disconnect between many urbanized youth and their knowledge of tribal customs and background. So when asked, I'd probably explain that the best candidate for my mother tongue is Kimeru, in contrast to my L1.

It is clear from the discussion to point that this definition of mother tongue is very closely associated with the language of my heritage. So I lied: even I can only draw distinctions between three of them. The only thing I could say is that is seems likely that a mother tongue would also be a language that you were brought up with, whereas the language's of ones heritage include could well include that whole set of languages spoken by anyone that you can draw lineage from by some cockamamie relationship. One of my Comp E professors once showed us a family tree "proving" his lineage from Charlemagne, and then noted that everyone in the department had a similar chart. So I guess there must be some relation between computer engineering and being 3/1024ths Frank, right? Right?

Yeah, I loved that professor. But really, a mother tongue, to me, does imply something closer to oneself that a generic language of heritage does. Of course, all this comes with the caveat that these distinctions depend on somewhat marginal situations based on my personal background that lead to usage that is dialectal or idiosyncratic. There's no doubt that, for the majority of the first three will describe the exact same thing, as can be seen from the responses in this thread, and that (native language ≡ mother language ≡ L1) is the standard definition of these terms. But you asked, I answered:

• native lang English
• languages we were brought up with Kimeru, Swahili, English
• mother tongues Kimeru
• languages of our heritage It ain't Proto-Indo-European

[finlay]

One of my Comp E professors once showed us a family tree "proving" his lineage from Charlemagne, and then noted that everyone in the department had a similar chart. So I guess there must be some relation between computer engineering and being 3/1024ths Frank, right? Right?

It's mathematically impossible to have European ancestors and not be descended from Charlemagne, they say. He lived so long ago (and had a lot of children, which helps) that his theoretical minimum number of unique descendants is something like 80 billion.

[Arzena]

Native language: English
L2s: Spanish, Arabic
Ancestral Languages: Lithuanian, Irish Gaelic, English, German, and ultimately Old High Gallifreyan.

[Jipí]

Old High Gallifreyan.

Do you have a sonic screwdriver as a family heirloom?

[ol bofosh]

I forgot to say Old High Gallifreyan.

Susan was my great-great-great-great grandmother, making the Doctor my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather. (I wish)

[Left]

-----------

[Wattmann]

One of my Comp E professors once showed us a family tree "proving" his lineage from Charlemagne, and then noted that everyone in the department had a similar chart. So I guess there must be some relation between computer engineering and being 3/1024ths Frank, right? Right?

It's mathematically impossible to have European ancestors and not be descended from Charlemagne, they say. He lived so long ago (and had a lot of children, which helps) that his theoretical minimum number of unique descendants is something like 80 billion.

Then I'm screwing my cousin, and her parents are even closer cousins to me. So, my future child would be my... grandnephew, too?
I doubt the truth value of that.
Then, is Temujin the ancestor of 130 billion people?

[*Ceresz]

One of my Comp E professors once showed us a family tree "proving" his lineage from Charlemagne, and then noted that everyone in the department had a similar chart. So I guess there must be some relation between computer engineering and being 3/1024ths Frank, right? Right?

It's mathematically impossible to have European ancestors and not be descended from Charlemagne, they say. He lived so long ago (and had a lot of children, which helps) that his theoretical minimum number of unique descendants is something like 80 billion.

Then I'm screwing my cousin, and her parents are even closer cousins to me. So, my future child would be my... grandnephew, too?
I doubt the truth value of that.
Then, is Temujin the ancestor of 130 billion people?

I started watching QI from the beginning the other day, which reminded me of this guy and this girl.

Your username means "the lanterns" .

Indeed.

When I first learned about -Vr + -en > -Vrna for PL.DEF, I looked at it and thought "that's hot." (Well, as those things go.)

I guess it is kinda hot .

[finlay]

One of my Comp E professors once showed us a family tree "proving" his lineage from Charlemagne, and then noted that everyone in the department had a similar chart. So I guess there must be some relation between computer engineering and being 3/1024ths Frank, right? Right?

It's mathematically impossible to have European ancestors and not be descended from Charlemagne, they say. He lived so long ago (and had a lot of children, which helps) that his theoretical minimum number of unique descendants is something like 80 billion.

Then I'm screwing my cousin, and her parents are even closer cousins to me. So, my future child would be my... grandnephew, too?
I doubt the truth value of that.
Then, is Temujin the ancestor of 130 billion people?

I started watching QI from the beginning the other day, which reminded me of this guy and this girl.

Well, uh, that fact will come up later... most of my knowledge comes from QI, after all.

[*Ceresz]

I started watching QI from the beginning the other day, which reminded me of this guy and this girl.

Well, uh, that fact will come up later... most of my knowledge comes from QI, after all.

Well, I've watched all the episodes of QI already, but 90% or so of the knowledge I gained through watching it has been lost . The "Adam & Eve" thing was way back in the first series/season.

[cromulant]

Then I'm screwing my cousin, and her parents are even closer cousins to me. So, my future child would be my... grandnephew, too?
I doubt the truth value of that.

Yes, you and your girlfriend are related (hopefully, very distantly). All living humans are related, however distantly. All life on Earth is familially related (i.e. descended from a common ancestor).

This is not Adam and Eveism; it is an inescapable corollary of evolutionism.

It's true. You're fucking your cousin.

[finlay]

Once you get to second or third cousins you're pretty much at the same level of shared genetic material as any random sample of the population. Even your first cousins don't have that much in common with you, comparatively speaking (and it's not illegal in most of the developed world - just the USA).

[Bristel]

Once you get to second or third cousins you're pretty much at the same level of shared genetic material as any random sample of the population. Even your first cousins don't have that much in common with you, comparatively speaking (and it's not illegal in most of the developed world - just the USA).

Wait, so who're my first cousins again?

My grandmother's sibling's grandchildren? :/

[Jipí]

My grandmother's sibling's grandchildren? :/

First cousins share their grandparents, i.e. they're the children of your uncles/aunts. Cousin degrees have always confused me.

[Bristel]

My grandmother's sibling's grandchildren? :/

First cousins share their grandparents, i.e. they're the children of your uncles/aunts. Cousin degrees have always confused me.

Yeah, the one chart didn't help, because it only spoke of it in terms of grandparents, which is what I'm confused about.

I have no first cousins then? My aunt on my paternal side didn't have children, and neither has my uncle on my maternal side.

EDIT: I'm guessing that I'd have to go by common progenitor? Hmmm, for the cousins I want to know the terms for, I'd have to go to great-grandparents to see what our relation is.

I have a bunch of "cousins" of around my age who are/were very close friends when we were young, but we never got into how the terms worked in relation to each other.

Ah, I see if their great-grandparent is my great-grandparent, then we are second-cousins.

[Rui]

Native: English

Ancestry: German (Schwäbisch), the dialect/language that's spoken outside of Venice as well as Italian (my family is from outside Venice), Tagalog, and probably Irish (but English for a long time- my Irish family's from one of the English-speaking areas now).

So 3 parts Proto-Indo-European, 1 part Proto-Austronesian

[Rui]

Yeah, the one chart didn't help, because it only spoke of it in terms of grandparents, which is what I'm confused about.

I have no first cousins then? My aunt on my paternal side didn't have children, and neither has my uncle on my maternal side.

EDIT: I'm guessing that I'd have to go by common progenitor? Hmmm, for the cousins I want to know the terms for, I'd have to go to great-grandparents to see what our relation is.

I have a bunch of "cousins" of around my age who are/were very close friends when we were young, but we never got into how the terms worked in relation to each other.

I basically think of it as: nth cousins are the ones who have a common ancestor with me after going up n+1 generations in my family tree, alternatively, going up n generations results in siblings.

Thus 1st cousins have a common ancestor when going up 2 generations (i.e. grandparents). 2nd cousins have a common ancestor when going up 3 generations (i.e. great-grandparents).

[finlay]

Once you get to second or third cousins you're pretty much at the same level of shared genetic material as any random sample of the population. Even your first cousins don't have that much in common with you, comparatively speaking (and it's not illegal in most of the developed world - just the USA).

Wait, so who're my first cousins again?

My grandmother's sibling's grandchildren? :/

First cousins are the ones that most people just refer to as "cousins". Second (third, nth) cousins share an ancestor one generation back from them, and so on. Cousins once (twice, n times) removed are either the descendants of your cousin or the cousins of your ancestor, such that the relationship is mutual – eg, your dad's cousin or your cousin's daughter are both your cousin once removed, and you are their cousin once removed too.

Basically, if you have no first cousins but you do have second cousins (which is what you describe), you're in the minority of just calling them your "cousins". Conversely, "cousin once removed" is a bit of a clumsy title, so they tend to become either nephews/nieces or uncles/aunts if you're close, or "cousins"/"second cousins" if you're not. Personally I've never met any second cousins, but I have met one of my dad's cousins (we spent a bit of time trying to work out what relationship we had to each other, and got "cousin once removed", and decided, as I say, that it was a bit of a clumsy title and pretty much forgot it and kept calling each other "second cousins"), and two of my paternal cousins (one of whom I still haven't met) have recently had children (none of whom I've met), who would also count as my cousins once removed, but again, it's a silly title.

[Bristel]

Finally figured this out, I think. It's kinda strange because I always considered my first-cousins once-removed as "aunts" or "uncles" and their children (second cousins) as aunts and uncles as well. Then that third generation as "cousins".

Of course, I don't know many people that consider their great-aunts and great-uncles with that title, but call them "aunts and uncles", and that's what I did for my grandmother's siblings.

It was hard matching up the generations because some members of our family are of very different ages, and the sheer size of the family is a bit overwhelming to count.

[Miekko]

Once you get to second or third cousins you're pretty much at the same level of shared genetic material as any random sample of the population. Even your first cousins don't have that much in common with you, comparatively speaking (and it's not illegal in most of the developed world - just the USA).

Wait, so who're my first cousins again?

My grandmother's sibling's grandchildren? :/

First cousins are the ones that most people just refer to as "cousins". Second (third, nth) cousins share an ancestor one generation back from them, and so on. Cousins once (twice, n times) removed are either the descendants of your cousin or the cousins of your ancestor, such that the relationship is mutual – eg, your dad's cousin or your cousin's daughter are both your cousin once removed, and you are their cousin once removed too.

Basically, if you have no first cousins but you do have second cousins (which is what you describe), you're in the minority of just calling them your "cousins". Conversely, "cousin once removed" is a bit of a clumsy title, so they tend to become either nephews/nieces or uncles/aunts if you're close, or "cousins"/"second cousins" if you're not. Personally I've never met any second cousins, but I have met one of my dad's cousins (we spent a bit of time trying to work out what relationship we had to each other, and got "cousin once removed", and decided, as I say, that it was a bit of a clumsy title and pretty much forgot it and kept calling each other "second cousins"), and two of my paternal cousins (one of whom I still haven't met) have recently had children (none of whom I've met), who would also count as my cousins once removed, but again, it's a silly title.

You're lucky to at least have titles like those available. I know people who refuse to acknowledge that people who aren't in the set {Nth cousins, ancestors, descendants, siblings, uncles, aunts, nephews} can be relatives at all. Due to the lack of terminology for Nth cousin Zth removed in Swedish, there's a whole lot of people that think your Nth cousin Zth removed isn't your relative at all. That's what you get when people get confused about how reality and terminology are related, and imho, it's often times easier to adjust the terminology than to get people to get it.