Easy languages

[Miekko]

I don't think that morphologically simpler languages have a more complicated syntax. It is true that morphologically simpler languages tend to have stricter word order rules wrt the position of the subject, object and verb (though Chinese is an exception). But stricter does not mean more complicated. If a hypothetical language always has word order Subject Verb Object, without exception (I am not sure if such a language exists) it is less complicated than a language that has more variation. Also, in languages with a so-called "free" word order the word order is usually not free, but rather governed by complicated, and to an extent language-specific rules, regarding the information structure, where usually you need to make more fine-grained distinctions than just topic and focus.And then there is also stuff that has to do with syntax that is strictly not word-order, such as passivization and the distribution of reflexives, that is largely independent from the extent in which a language is complicated morphologically.

Have you ever learned any morphologically simpler languages? Because I can tell you from years of learning Chinese that syntax it's NOT just as easy as learning the word order and sticking to that the entire time you speak that language. As I said before, there's (morphologically unmarked) topicalization, there's sentences whose entire meaning changes with the addition of ONE character.

Mandarin sentences ARE basically SVO, but any time you want to add something on the basic 'SVO' pattern, it feels like something changes. Ditransitive sentences generally have the pattern SOVI, for example (O = object, I = indirect object), time duration sentences require you to repeat the verb after the direct object (SVOVT, T = time phrase). Topicalization runs rampant in the language, in which sentences are basically OSV, which as I said before is morphologically unmarked, unlike in morphologically complex languages- it's left to context. Relative clauses, and basically all subordinate clauses, come before the noun it modifies, which isn't a problem on it's own (since the topic is about generally easy langs), but presents a problem for anyone who speaks a European language natively. It's pro-drop without verb marking, so the meaning is left to context. And let's not even get into the dozens of particles that slightly shade the meaning of the sentence, and are quite hard for learners to pick up on. ETC. ETC. ETC. ETC.

So yeah, there's a lot more going on than "just" being SVO

Well, I was arguing that languages with a strict word order are not more complicated than a languages with a so-called free word-order. I specifically mentioned Chinese as being not strict while still being morphologically simple, so I don't see how you saying Chinese is complicated disproves my point. It just annoys me when people say about languages like say Hungarian (and indeed Chinese), "well, there are no rules regarding the word order" when that is not true, there is more variation, but that variation is governed by rules as well.
And I have learned a morphologically simple language as a second language, namely English, and it is not very complicated syntactically, (or rather, not more complicated than the slightly more morphologically complicated Dutch)

Hungarian is extremely simple, you know... Its syntax is far easier than that of English (ex: "How would he have not had the knowledge of that girl being too fine a lass for him") because it is less fixed, and you can learn the morphology far quicker than you can learn syntax.

And this includes learning all the nuances that reordering can express? This includes learning how pronouns and anaphora can bind? This includes learning all of the phenomena in Hungarian syntax? Allow me to doubt it quite strongly. The example of English you use clearly also is rather marked and expressed in a relatively faux-posh way. I bet Hungarian as well has faux-posh variations, etc.

[Abi]

I can't speak from any experience, but Hawaiian looks incredibly easy to me. Easy to pronounce with just as easy alphabet, no horrible morphology, fairly straight-forward looking syntax (of course it could be like what's been said about Mandarin, easy at first but a beast later). Shame the language is of practically no use to anyone outside a small Hawaiian population.

[Pole, the]

I'll second Indonesian.

Also, any pidgin/creole.

[Bristel]

Esperanto. Although the passive and active voice and the number and case agreement sometimes throw me off, especially when sentence has more than one subject.

[MadBrain]

Tried Spanish, German and Chinese. Easiest by far was Spanish, but it's related to my native language (French). It's generally considered to be easy for English speakers too. I wonder if Asians find it hard to learn.

Didn't find the difference in difficulty between German and Mandarin to be that large though. I think German was a bit easier still but both have some level of difficulty. I like to describe Mandarin as "simple and logical but also really hard".

Easier parts in German compared to Mandarin:
- Writing system. Mandarin has just too many complex characters. The simplified/traditional split is also ridiculous.
- Common vocabulary. Seems to be a mix of easy (basic word also found in English, Latinate borrowings) and hard (long words made out of roots that don't happen in English). Mandarin of course has no common vocabulary at all.
- Phonology. (no tone, no retroflex consonants, voice distinction instead of just aspiration)
- Syllable structure/morphologic content a lot more like French or English. Mandarin has way too many neutralizations and impossible syllables, so is syllable grid is extremely weird and pretty skewed. Also there's way too much zh/ch/sh/j/q/x. Result: all the words sound the same.
- No measure words.

Easier parts in Mandarin:
- Much, much more regular. German isn't that complex morphologically - there aren't all that many verb tenses and noun variations - but EVERYTHING is irregular. Nouns are irregular, plurals are irregular, determiners are irregular, adjectives are irregular (superlatives etc), verbs are irregular, participles are irregular... I didn't study German for too long so we didn't really get to the full blown [nom/acc/dat/gen] [masc/fem/neu] [sing/plur] system, but it just looked like a total jumble.
- Derivation. When you start getting into compound words in Mandarin, they make a lot of sense. This is probably because unlike European languages, it doesn't have a zillion different borrowing sources, plus cross-syllable phonetic evolution jumbling everything together.

Syntax seemed to be on the same level of difficulty in both, but for different reasons... German has the famous V2 word order, where the verb moves down to the end of the sentence, or inversely it moves up to the front in a question. Mandarin has a much more consistent order which is nice, but perhaps a bit too consistent - what with the prepositional arguments having to be between the subject and the verb (instead of being before the subject or after the object like in French or English).

All in all, I'd definitely want to look into Spanish to see why it's considered as "easy", and especially why that way even compared to the more related Germanic languages for English speakers, and also considering some not all that easy features it has (noun gender, verb conjugation stuff).

[Chuma]

That reminds me of another difficulty about English that is often forgotten: the use of Latin roots for adjectives where the noun has a Germanic root. There was a great list of those on Wikipedia, but I can't remember what the page was called.

It's also an interesting point that maybe some languages are easier because they haven't mixed with so many others. On the other hand, many languages are easier because they have mixed with others - like pidgins, etc.

[finlay]

I reckon its a source of difficulty in japanese too - the fact that you have native roots and chinese roots. Makes kanji fucking impossible...

[Rui]

That reminds me of another difficulty about English that is often forgotten: the use of Latin roots for adjectives where the noun has a Germanic root. There was a great list of those on Wikipedia, but I can't remember what the page was called.

Was it this?

[Chuma]

No, it was a similar list, but longer, I think, on a separate page. Could be in Wiktionary, I suppose.

[Lyhoko Leaci]

No, it was a similar list, but longer, I think, on a separate page. Could be in Wiktionary, I suppose.

Was it this page?

[Viktor77]

The only reason I'd argue against Spanish being easy is because while Spanish starts out easy-peasy, it quickly moves into being more difficult and less predictable with syntax. There are times in Spanish when things change predictable syntactic order, but there is no hard-fast rule for when to do it and when not to. In subordinate clauses, the subject and verb can flip, something you rarely see in French. There are two ways to form direct objects and indirect objects with verb phrases with infinitives and it varies from native speaker to native speaker how it is preferred. The plethora of dialects is also a point of argument for the difficulty of Spanish. Not to mention the shear number of second person pronouns, tu, usted, ustedes, vosotros, vos, and there are even more variances in eres, sois, eris, etc.

As I'm taking a French phonetics class now, I would easily ague French's difficulty. Learning when to pronounce the <s> in plus is such a headache it's not even worth it. Learning to differetiate l'enchainement and liason, especially with regards to aspirated <h>. Like les onzes, [le.o~z], because of antiguated les honzes. Pronunciation rules are simply all over the place and never straightforward (one place where Spanish is easier). Why avec [a.vEk] but then porc [pOR]? Why l'oeuf [l2f] but then les oeufs [le.z2]? Why chef [SEf] but then chef d'oeuvre [Se.d9.vR@]?

Portuguese seems to me thusfar to be like Spanish, but just French in pronunciation. I'd almost call Portuguese the Danish of Romance, as it is pronounced lazily and I find, like Danish, there are no hard-fast rules for when to pronounce it lazily, ie. when to reduce as in when to pronounce <o> as [o] or or when <i> is or , etc. To learn Portuguese, and I'd argue Spanish, it's less studying phonology and more simply trying to, through trial and error, to mimic the conditions and within the mouth of native speakers and their mindset when speaking the language.

Forgive me if I mess up [2] vs. [9]. We haven't covered that yet in my class.

[Zontas]

I can't speak from any experience, but Hawaiian looks incredibly easy to me. Easy to pronounce with just as easy alphabet, no horrible morphology, fairly straight-forward looking syntax (of course it could be like what's been said about Mandarin, easy at first but a beast later). Shame the language is of practically no use to anyone outside a small Hawaiian population.

Ever seen a Hawaiian word? It will take days before you can finish your sentence.

A limited phonology and phonotactics, usually means a lot of homophones or incredibly long words so...

[Xephyr]

He puke noiʻi kūʻikena kūnoa ʻo Wikipikia. E ʻoluʻolu nō, e lūlū a e hāʻawi mai i kou mau ʻike, manaʻo, a me leo no ke kūkulu a me ke kākoʻo ʻana o ka Wikipikia Hawaiʻi. He ʻōnaehana pūnaewele Hawaiʻi ʻo ia no ka hoʻohana ʻana a me ka hoʻoulu ʻana i ka ʻike Hawaiʻi. Inā hiki iā ʻoe ke ʻōlelo i ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi, e ʻoluʻolu nō, e kōkua a e hoʻopololei i nā mea like ʻole; pono ʻoe e haʻi aku i kou mau hoa aloha e pili ana i ka Wikipikia Hawaiʻi. E ola mau nō e ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi a mau loa aku.

Oh God, the words, they're like, so long, and stuff.

[Zontas]

He puke noiʻi kūʻikena kūnoa ʻo Wikipikia. E ʻoluʻolu nō, e lūlū a e hāʻawi mai i kou mau ʻike, manaʻo, a me leo no ke kūkulu a me ke kākoʻo ʻana o ka Wikipikia Hawaiʻi. He ʻōnaehana pūnaewele Hawaiʻi ʻo ia no ka hoʻohana ʻana a me ka hoʻoulu ʻana i ka ʻike Hawaiʻi. Inā hiki iā ʻoe ke ʻōlelo i ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi, e ʻoluʻolu nō, e kōkua a e hoʻopololei i nā mea like ʻole; pono ʻoe e haʻi aku i kou mau hoa aloha e pili ana i ka Wikipikia Hawaiʻi. E ola mau nō e ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi a mau loa aku.

Oh God, the words, they're like, so long, and stuff.

1. Don't be an ass, it does't matter how stupid I'm being, it gives you no right to jump to the "Be a condescending douche and then blame him for not trying to learn" phase.

2. It still can't manage to have a sufficient vocabulary and limited phonology with at least some harsh/unfortunately homophonous words.

4. Let me know if I'm wrong. By proving it while talking to me like a human being.

[Xephyr]

He puke noiʻi kūʻikena kūnoa ʻo Wikipikia. E ʻoluʻolu nō, e lūlū a e hāʻawi mai i kou mau ʻike, manaʻo, a me leo no ke kūkulu a me ke kākoʻo ʻana o ka Wikipikia Hawaiʻi. He ʻōnaehana pūnaewele Hawaiʻi ʻo ia no ka hoʻohana ʻana a me ka hoʻoulu ʻana i ka ʻike Hawaiʻi. Inā hiki iā ʻoe ke ʻōlelo i ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi, e ʻoluʻolu nō, e kōkua a e hoʻopololei i nā mea like ʻole; pono ʻoe e haʻi aku i kou mau hoa aloha e pili ana i ka Wikipikia Hawaiʻi. E ola mau nō e ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi a mau loa aku.

Oh God, the words, they're like, so long, and stuff.

1. Don't be an ass, it does't matter how stupid I'm being, it gives you no right to jump to the "Be a condescending douche and then blame him for not trying to learn" phase.

2. It still can't manage to have a sufficient vocabulary and limited phonology with at least some harsh/unfortunately homophonous words.

4. Let me know if I'm wrong. By proving it while talking to me like a human being.

3 comes after 2

[Zontas]

He puke noiʻi kūʻikena kūnoa ʻo Wikipikia. E ʻoluʻolu nō, e lūlū a e hāʻawi mai i kou mau ʻike, manaʻo, a me leo no ke kūkulu a me ke kākoʻo ʻana o ka Wikipikia Hawaiʻi. He ʻōnaehana pūnaewele Hawaiʻi ʻo ia no ka hoʻohana ʻana a me ka hoʻoulu ʻana i ka ʻike Hawaiʻi. Inā hiki iā ʻoe ke ʻōlelo i ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi, e ʻoluʻolu nō, e kōkua a e hoʻopololei i nā mea like ʻole; pono ʻoe e haʻi aku i kou mau hoa aloha e pili ana i ka Wikipikia Hawaiʻi. E ola mau nō e ka ʻōlelo Hawaiʻi a mau loa aku.

Oh God, the words, they're like, so long, and stuff.

1. Don't be an ass, it does't matter how stupid I'm being, it gives you no right to jump to the "Be a condescending douche and then blame him for not trying to learn" phase.

2. It still can't manage to have a sufficient vocabulary and limited phonology with at least some harsh/unfortunately homophonous words.

4. Let me know if I'm wrong. By proving it while talking to me like a human being.

3 comes after 2

That was on purpose. I just wanted to see if you'd notice.

[Chuma]

Was it this page?

Nope, that's not the one either.

[Mr. Z]

@Helios: for one thing, Legion always does stuff like this. You noticing it won't make him stop
Also keep in mind the fact that this time, he was pretty innocent. Just a little sarcasm

[Xephyr]

That was on purpose. I just wanted to see if you'd notice.

What, are you 13 or something?

By the way, according to Wikipedia and a little math, Hawaiian phonology can theoretically allow for up to 39,402 separate, non-homophonous words of two or fewer syllables, and 7,840,998 words comprising three syllables or less. I think they'll manage.

[Drydic]

That was on purpose. I just wanted to see if you'd notice.

What, are you 13 or something?

14.

[Legion]

@Helios: for one thing, Legion always does stuff like this. You noticing it won't make him stop

You need to have your eye-sight checked.

[Zontas]

That was on purpose. I just wanted to see if you'd notice.

What, are you 13 or something?

By the way, according to Wikipedia and a little math, Hawaiian phonology can theoretically allow for up to 39,402 separate, non-homophonous words of two or fewer syllables, and 7,840,998 words comprising three syllables or less. I think they'll manage.

thank you, and does it matte what age I am?

let's get back on topic.

[Zontas]

@Helios: for one thing, Legion always does stuff like this. You noticing it won't make him stop
Also keep in mind the fact that this time, he was pretty innocent. Just a little sarcasm

Uhh, Xephyr is the one who responded to me- not Legion.

[Aurora Rossa]

I suppose one could technically count Pirahã as an easy language owing to its tiny phoneme inventory and reportedly sparse grammar. Of course getting adequate learning materials would prove challenging.

[Whimemsz]

I suppose one could technically count Pirahã as an easy language owing to its tiny phoneme inventory and reportedly sparse grammar. Of course getting adequate learning materials would prove challenging.

Don't be retarded

NE: To be more specific, maybe you should read some shit on Piraha before saying lunatic things like this. Everett has always been extremely clear that Piraha is one of the most difficult and complicated languages he knows of, he just doesn't think it has **recursion**. It's really fucking complex in just about every other way imaginable (including in its phonology).

NNE: Honestly, even if you didn't want to read any of Everett's actual publications on this stuff, it's not that hard to read the few paragraphs Wikipedia devotes to describing it, goddddd