finlay wrote:Japanese /u/ is very similar to the one in most British accents, in that it's fronted compared to cardinal . I don't know of any major English accents with anything like cardinal in them.
I think you can find this in various Caribbean English accents.
These don't match. (I have heard Englishes with a back vowel in them, but they are by no means in the majority, and it's always a surprise to hear them)
As for "BrE" vowels, mine can be different from southern ones quite a lot. In particular, I rarely if ever have a glide on /i/ or /u/. Scottish /u/ is also well-known for having a [y] realisation; for me it's not the dominant one, though (tends to be the one after /j/ quite often, though). As for glides on /e/ or /o/, they tend to be present in my speech, but I can get rid of them if I want to. Basically, I have very little trouble pronouncing Japanese vowels, but sometimes I find it difficult to distinguish them, mainly /o/ vs /oː/.
finlay wrote:Japanese /u/ is very similar to the one in most British accents, in that it's fronted compared to cardinal . I don't know of any major English accents with anything like cardinal in them.
I think you can find this in various Caribbean English accents.
These don't match. (I have heard Englishes with a back vowel in them, but they are by no means in the majority, and it's always a surprise to hear them)
As for "BrE" vowels, mine can be different from southern ones quite a lot. In particular, I rarely if ever have a glide on /i/ or /u/. Scottish /u/ is also well-known for having a [y] realisation; for me it's not the dominant one, though (tends to be the one after /j/ quite often, though). As for glides on /e/ or /o/, they tend to be present in my speech, but I can get rid of them if I want to. Basically, I have very little trouble pronouncing Japanese vowels, but sometimes I find it difficult to distinguish them, mainly /o/ vs /oː/.
Sorry, didn't notice the "major"
When I said BrE I meant RP, but my terminology was influenced by the post I was replying to.
clawgrip wrote:I have to say though that I’m not sure where you get the idea that Japanese /u/ is exolabial, and that Australian and British /u/ are endolabial. It seems like you’ve got it backwards. I can’t speak with complete confidence about Australian and British /u/, but I do not agree with your assessment of Japanese /u/ being exolabial, and I have never seen anyone else who agrees either.
I had to look this up, because I originally had them backwards. Exolabial rounding is produced with the outer part of the lips, which means they're compressed. Endolabial is pronounced with the inner part of the lips, which means they protrude. I would have named them the other way 'round, but I defer to Wikipedia.
Regardless, what I meant was that Japanese /u/ is compressed, while BrE and AusE seem (to me) to use the same protruded lip rounding as you would expect for cardinal /u/. To me, these produce a very different sound. But I could be wrong; my exposure to modern BrE and AusE is somewhat limited.
I believe what y'all've been refering to as /u/ [y] is more like /ʊ/ [ʏ] - <book> = [bʏ(:)k]
Warning: Recovering bilingual, attempting trilinguaility. Knowledge of French left behind in childhood. Currently repairing bilinguality. Repair stalled. Above content may be a touch off.
clawgrip wrote:I have to say though that I’m not sure where you get the idea that Japanese /u/ is exolabial, and that Australian and British /u/ are endolabial. It seems like you’ve got it backwards. I can’t speak with complete confidence about Australian and British /u/, but I do not agree with your assessment of Japanese /u/ being exolabial, and I have never seen anyone else who agrees either.
I had to look this up, because I originally had them backwards. Exolabial rounding is produced with the outer part of the lips, which means they're compressed. Endolabial is pronounced with the inner part of the lips, which means they protrude. I would have named them the other way 'round, but I defer to Wikipedia.
Regardless, what I meant was that Japanese /u/ is compressed, while BrE and AusE seem (to me) to use the same protruded lip rounding as you would expect for cardinal /u/. To me, these produce a very different sound. But I could be wrong; my exposure to modern BrE and AusE is somewhat limited.
I'm familiar with the compressed/rounded terminology but less familiar with exo-/endolabial, so maybe I mucked it up. In that case it seems we agree, Japanese /u/ is compressed, while RP and AusE are more rounded than compressed, especially in the offglide.
finlay wrote:Japanese /u/ is very similar to the one in most British accents, in that it's fronted compared to cardinal . I don't know of any major English accents with anything like cardinal in them.
I think you can find this in various Caribbean English accents.
These don't match. (I have heard Englishes with a back vowel in them, but they are by no means in the majority, and it's always a surprise to hear them)
As for "BrE" vowels, mine can be different from southern ones quite a lot. In particular, I rarely if ever have a glide on /i/ or /u/. Scottish /u/ is also well-known for having a [y] realisation; for me it's not the dominant one, though (tends to be the one after /j/ quite often, though). As for glides on /e/ or /o/, they tend to be present in my speech, but I can get rid of them if I want to. Basically, I have very little trouble pronouncing Japanese vowels, but sometimes I find it difficult to distinguish them, mainly /o/ vs /oː/.
My own dialect of English often has a back for /u/ in it, particularly in more conservative but dialectal speech, but even then I personally know individuals who speak it but with more central [ʉ] and possibly a bit fronter pronunciation than that, which sounds very much like typical General American pronunciation but is marked as an innovation in the context of my dialect. Even then, my dialect still has [ʉ] and [ʉ̯u], and in some idiolects [i̯u] or [y̯u] or [i̯ʉ] or [y̯ʉ], as allophones of /u/ conditioned by adjacent coronals and/or /j/.
The same applies also to /ʊ/, which has similar allophones and distribution and variation between individuals.
clawgrip wrote:I have to say though that I’m not sure where you get the idea that Japanese /u/ is exolabial, and that Australian and British /u/ are endolabial. It seems like you’ve got it backwards. I can’t speak with complete confidence about Australian and British /u/, but I do not agree with your assessment of Japanese /u/ being exolabial, and I have never seen anyone else who agrees either.
I had to look this up, because I originally had them backwards. Exolabial rounding is produced with the outer part of the lips, which means they're compressed. Endolabial is pronounced with the inner part of the lips, which means they protrude. I would have named them the other way 'round, but I defer to Wikipedia.
Well, an older Wikipedia image at least shows that exolabial can be "bigger":
Unless it was removed because it was wrong ... my Internet connection's too shaky for me to want to look through all those old edits to see when and why the image was removed.
Serafín wrote:How would I know that didn't obey English phonotactics
=> How could/should I have known that I wasn't obeying English phonotactics ... ?
When I see foreign names, I automatically change my pronunciation now. For example, if it's a Spanish name I adopt a kind of miscellaneous foreign phonology (where /r/ is [ɾ]), and sometimes I'm not sure how your average uneducated monolingual Aussie would pronounce it anymore. For example, the Chinese name Leung. I would pronounce that [leʊŋ] but I have no idea how most Australians would think to pronounce that. Maybe L+EU+NG = /luːŋ/ or maybe LE+UNG /liːˈʌŋ/.
I also go into Italian restaurants and order, gnocchi if not [ɲɔkːi] then at least [njɔkʰi]. Usually the wait(e)r(ess) repeats it as [nɔki], which is fine, but once I had a confused waitress just look at me and then when I pointed she went "Oh, the [gəˈnɔtʃi]". And I like to drink chinotto, and MOST people who work in restaurants here, who aren't actually Italian, say [tʃəˈnɔɾəʉ]. I feel like asking "What would you recommend? The [spəˈdʒeɾi bɔləgˈniːz] or the [ləˈsægni]?
Are you sure these words originate from standard italian? Shouldn't your pretentious little ass be sure to pronounce them exactly as in the most authentic original dialect, just the one the old granny who invented lasagna spoke?
< Cev> My people we use cars. I come from a very proud car culture-- every part of the car is used, nothing goes to waste. When my people first saw the car, generations ago, we called it šuŋka wakaŋ-- meaning "automated mobile".
[y] is more like /ʊ/ 
