Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
Disclamer: my mother isn't the topic, nor is her rudeness, nor the link to medieval-style heavy metal, nor is my ancestry, but the not-knowledge of my ancestors' languages)
So, I've been thinking - since I'm not speaking the language of the majority (nor the minority, mind you) of my ancestors, and my awesome dad is going around the world fucking women at random - does anyone here... not speak the language of their ancestors (in this case father and mother)
Apparently, after listening to my mother talking to me about her home, during which she sang a song that I recognised as some German variety, I'm Saxon.
I'm not sure from where, as my mother's from some half-assedly named village (in her native dialect) that I cannot track on a map.
But, her dialect seemed eerily close to this Keen Weg Zu Weet, although lacking the /ts/ of <z> and having some diphthongisations and "overlong" vowels.
Being the bitch she is, she didn't even tell me the actual name of her village, and said something which effectively means "Figure it out for yourself, you're the one who's good with languages".
Also, my father's maternal grandfather (who had kids at age 50-something with a Saxon woman and promptly died) is from somewhere on the Torne river or something, and he had knowledge of his native North Sami, which he didn't pass on to my paternal grandparents (he died in 1943 after getting drunk in a bar and being beaten up by a Finn in Östhammar after being stuck in Sweden during the war)
Anyone else have such a fun backstory involving his ancestors' languages, namely the not-knowledge of them?
So, I've been thinking - since I'm not speaking the language of the majority (nor the minority, mind you) of my ancestors, and my awesome dad is going around the world fucking women at random - does anyone here... not speak the language of their ancestors (in this case father and mother)
Apparently, after listening to my mother talking to me about her home, during which she sang a song that I recognised as some German variety, I'm Saxon.
I'm not sure from where, as my mother's from some half-assedly named village (in her native dialect) that I cannot track on a map.
But, her dialect seemed eerily close to this Keen Weg Zu Weet, although lacking the /ts/ of <z> and having some diphthongisations and "overlong" vowels.
Being the bitch she is, she didn't even tell me the actual name of her village, and said something which effectively means "Figure it out for yourself, you're the one who's good with languages".
Also, my father's maternal grandfather (who had kids at age 50-something with a Saxon woman and promptly died) is from somewhere on the Torne river or something, and he had knowledge of his native North Sami, which he didn't pass on to my paternal grandparents (he died in 1943 after getting drunk in a bar and being beaten up by a Finn in Östhammar after being stuck in Sweden during the war)
Anyone else have such a fun backstory involving his ancestors' languages, namely the not-knowledge of them?
Warning: Recovering bilingual, attempting trilinguaility. Knowledge of French left behind in childhood. Currently repairing bilinguality. Repair stalled. Above content may be a touch off.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
I would speak Yiddish if my father's father hadn't had a stroke and forgotten it. For whatever obscure reason probably related to him not wanting to be like his own Orthodox father, he didn't speak it to my father or his other children at all, but by the time I was born he was getting back into Jewishy stuff, for whatever obscure reason probably related to him not wanting to die a goy, and he spoke to me in Yiddish, but then he had the stroke and forgot how to speak it properly.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
As near in the past as my grandparents do I encounter a generation of my family that I do not share a language with. My mom's mom is the only one who spoke English natively. My mom's dad spoke Schwäbisch, my dad's mom spoke that dialect of Italian that's near Venice (apparently they came from Friuli-Venezia Giulia, but that side of the family says they speak Italian, so...), and my dad's dad spoke Tagalog. Naturally they all learned English, but none of them spoke it natively. And none of them passed their language on to my parents.
Hell, I don't share a native language with most of my current family. I have my direct relatives (parents, aunts/uncles, first cousins) that speak English natively, but other than that, most of my family still lives in their original countries (well, I think the Italian side in Italy has died out, and probably the Irish side as well, but my Filipino side and my German side still live mostly there).
And this happens with a lot of 1st, 2nd and probably also 3rd generation Americans whose families come from non-English speaking countries. So this situation is not particularly unique.
Hell, I don't share a native language with most of my current family. I have my direct relatives (parents, aunts/uncles, first cousins) that speak English natively, but other than that, most of my family still lives in their original countries (well, I think the Italian side in Italy has died out, and probably the Irish side as well, but my Filipino side and my German side still live mostly there).
And this happens with a lot of 1st, 2nd and probably also 3rd generation Americans whose families come from non-English speaking countries. So this situation is not particularly unique.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
When my Irish Catholic great-grandmother married my German Protestant great-grandfather, she met with hostility among his people. According to family legend, they used to speak German around her knowing she couldn't understand them and, as a result, she forbade the speaking of it in her house. Thus my maternal grandfather grew up an English monolingual, which was something of a liability in parts of pre-WWII St Louis. (When he was courting my grandmother, her siblings parked him in the parlour with my Austrian great-great-grandmother, unaware that he couldn't understand a word the old lady was saying.) His wife knew it, but I don't think she tried to teach it to any of their children. (Certainly not my mother who had only a smattering of French and Latin.)
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
My family is not overly interesting, pretty typical Midwestern family I'd think. My paternal paternal great-grandparents were German speakers as my grandma tells me, speaking with a very strong accent and using lots of German phrases and what not. But their children learned English as a native language and I don't think they ever learned even the faintest bit of German. Other lines reflect the same German ancestry with fresh off the boat great great grandparents (sometimes illegally (or so it is rumored)) who certainly were native German speakers.
My maternal maternal maternal maternal great great great grandmother was Quebecois. Her daughter (my great great grandmother) must have known French for her mother only spoke it and even while living in Michigan, but for reasons unknown to anyone, the French stopped there. That whole part of my family is strange, they all changed their names from things like Hélène Sauvé to Helen Sova and from Belair to Blair.
Mine is a pretty common linguistic ancestry here.
I do want to, however, use this thread for a quick rant. I have met many people who speak of their grandparents as native speakers of a language and I certainly believe them, but then these people (my generation) claim, well when I was young I could understand everything my grandparents said, I was fluent, but now I've lost it. I ask them to say one thing in the language and they trip, not even able to properly pronounce things nor in fact understand spoken language which is what they claimed to be able to do as a child. It just makes me wonder two things, whether you really can learn to comprehend a language as a child and completely forget it, or why these people feel it is necessary to stretch the truth (and if they even realise they're doing it).
My maternal maternal maternal maternal great great great grandmother was Quebecois. Her daughter (my great great grandmother) must have known French for her mother only spoke it and even while living in Michigan, but for reasons unknown to anyone, the French stopped there. That whole part of my family is strange, they all changed their names from things like Hélène Sauvé to Helen Sova and from Belair to Blair.
Mine is a pretty common linguistic ancestry here.
I do want to, however, use this thread for a quick rant. I have met many people who speak of their grandparents as native speakers of a language and I certainly believe them, but then these people (my generation) claim, well when I was young I could understand everything my grandparents said, I was fluent, but now I've lost it. I ask them to say one thing in the language and they trip, not even able to properly pronounce things nor in fact understand spoken language which is what they claimed to be able to do as a child. It just makes me wonder two things, whether you really can learn to comprehend a language as a child and completely forget it, or why these people feel it is necessary to stretch the truth (and if they even realise they're doing it).
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
My family's story is not as exciting as some of these, but my maternal grandmother natively spoke Polish (she's still alive, but she is now English-monolingual) but transmitted absolutely none of it to my mom and her siblings, despite having studied solely in Polish through high school. My maternal grandmother still gets letters in Polish from back in Poland, but apparently she is unable to read them these days.
In my dad's family, apparently just about everyone of at least his grandparents' generation could speak German, and I am not quite as sure of his parents' generation except that my dad and his brothers picked up none of it. My dad's maternal grandmother, who not only spoke German but was very much literate in it, still tried to get them to learn German, but none of it stuck.
In my dad's family, apparently just about everyone of at least his grandparents' generation could speak German, and I am not quite as sure of his parents' generation except that my dad and his brothers picked up none of it. My dad's maternal grandmother, who not only spoke German but was very much literate in it, still tried to get them to learn German, but none of it stuck.
Last edited by Travis B. on Mon Apr 30, 2012 3:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
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Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
Kind of the same deal, albeit with my paternal grandmother instead. Apart from her, though, none of my relatives ever spoken anything besides English, at least from what they told me.Travis B. wrote:My family's story is not as exciting as some of these, but my maternal grandmother natively spoke Polish (she's still alive, but she is now English-monolingual) and but transmitted absolutely none of it to my mom and her siblings
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Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
What on earth... Oh wait, it's you, Viki. I should have guessed. Of course you can forget a language you learnt in childhood - is my grandad forgetting Yiddish not evidence of that?Viktor77 wrote:I do want to, however, use this thread for a quick rant. I have met many people who speak of their grandparents as native speakers of a language and I certainly believe them, but then these people (my generation) claim, well when I was young I could understand everything my grandparents said, I was fluent, but now I've lost it. I ask them to say one thing in the language and they trip, not even able to properly pronounce things nor in fact understand spoken language which is what they claimed to be able to do as a child. It just makes me wonder two things, whether you really can learn to comprehend a language as a child and completely forget it, or why these people feel it is necessary to stretch the truth (and if they even realise they're doing it).
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
He had a stroke, right?
Vik's (I guess) talking about a passive loss, instead of an active one.
Vik's (I guess) talking about a passive loss, instead of an active one.
Warning: Recovering bilingual, attempting trilinguaility. Knowledge of French left behind in childhood. Currently repairing bilinguality. Repair stalled. Above content may be a touch off.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
But still, of course it can happen. If you learn a bit of a language and then don't use it for years, you won't remember it, no matter how young you were when you learnt it.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
I guess you're right, it's the speed of it we're arguing over...Astraios wrote:But still, of course it can happen. If you learn a bit of a language and then don't use it for years, you won't remember it, no matter how young you were when you learnt it.
Warning: Recovering bilingual, attempting trilinguaility. Knowledge of French left behind in childhood. Currently repairing bilinguality. Repair stalled. Above content may be a touch off.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
E.g. my grandmother losing her Polish entirely despite speaking it natively rather than only learning a bit of it.Astraios wrote:But still, of course it can happen. If you learn a bit of a language and then don't use it for years, you won't remember it, no matter how young you were when you learnt it.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
I don't actually know when my ancestors lost Irish as a native language, or how exactly that transition occurred. Certainly my grandparents were English monolinguals and spoke no Irish (well, obviously their English was more influenced by Irish than mine would be, but they couldn't speak Irish as a language) at all. I think my maternal grandfather's uncle could speak Irish (and as that part of the family are almost certainly from the Aran Islands, that's highly probable) but it died out then at the very latest, and it looks as though his sister-in-law (great-grandmother) spoke no Irish. On my father's side, I've no idea when Irish was lost.
What's vaguely interesting about that is that my grandfather spoke no Irish at all, but then coming to the next generation, my parents, were intensively taught Irish at school (not necessarily effectively), which leads to my maternal aunt and mother speaking Irish fluently and another maternal aunt did mental arithmetic in Irish all her life!
What's vaguely interesting about that is that my grandfather spoke no Irish at all, but then coming to the next generation, my parents, were intensively taught Irish at school (not necessarily effectively), which leads to my maternal aunt and mother speaking Irish fluently and another maternal aunt did mental arithmetic in Irish all her life!
[quote]Great wit and madness near abide, and fine a line their bounds divide.[/quote]
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
Hey, Declan, might you have any living relative *that you know* that still has some knowledge of Irish?
Warning: Recovering bilingual, attempting trilinguaility. Knowledge of French left behind in childhood. Currently repairing bilinguality. Repair stalled. Above content may be a touch off.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
My history's pretty boring compared to some of the stuff I've seen here. Half my family speaks English, the other half Farsi. My father tried to teach me Farsi when I was younger but it didn't work. However, I have vowed that Farsi will definitely be my third language (when I'm finished with Español).
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
fuck my internet crapped out right when I hit "Post reply" and then I lost everything, but it still posted the quoted text...
So yeah, I'm not really sure. Presumably my Irish ancestors spoke Irish, or some older form of Irish, earlier on, as in centuries ago, but no since at least the early 1900s...
My mom's mom's side of the family is the same way. I know my maternal grandmother was born in the US, but her parents immigrated from County Sligo. Which, according to this map, was not really in the Gaeltacht at that time (the map shows the boundaries in 1926, about the time when they immigrated...maybe 10 or so years after).Declan wrote:I don't actually know when my ancestors lost Irish as a native language, or how exactly that transition occurred. Certainly my grandparents were English monolinguals and spoke no Irish (well, obviously their English was more influenced by Irish than mine would be, but they couldn't speak Irish as a language) at all. I think my maternal grandfather's uncle could speak Irish (and as that part of the family are almost certainly from the Aran Islands, that's highly probable) but it died out then at the very latest, and it looks as though his sister-in-law (great-grandmother) spoke no Irish. On my father's side, I've no idea when Irish was lost.
So yeah, I'm not really sure. Presumably my Irish ancestors spoke Irish, or some older form of Irish, earlier on, as in centuries ago, but no since at least the early 1900s...
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
The only interesting thing in my family is Gaelic; I think my great-grandmother on my dad's side would have spoken it. (my cousin and my uncle do also speak it, I think, but not through the family)
Also my dad can speak a different dialect from his part of the country if he puts it on. He doesn't normally do that though.
On my mum's side of the family there's only English. I don't know how far back you have to go to find other countries in the family tree...
Also my dad can speak a different dialect from his part of the country if he puts it on. He doesn't normally do that though.
On my mum's side of the family there's only English. I don't know how far back you have to go to find other countries in the family tree...
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
On my mother's side my grandmother was Finnish, and my grandfather Polish. My mother still knows Finnish, except it is c. 1930s Finnish, approximately when my grandmother left Finland. My grandfather never taught her Polish. My mother is extremely rusty (but competent, as a trip to Finland proved), but she never taught it to me.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
How far back do you want to go?
One set of my grandparents, and one set of my great-grandparents, spoke German, but never passed it down. Thus I'm the 2nd (on one side) or 3rd (on the other) who doesn't speak it.
Nothing special about that, though. It wasn't passed on because they wanted to have "good American kids" -- which meant, back then, English speakers, not German speakers.
One set of my grandparents, and one set of my great-grandparents, spoke German, but never passed it down. Thus I'm the 2nd (on one side) or 3rd (on the other) who doesn't speak it.
Nothing special about that, though. It wasn't passed on because they wanted to have "good American kids" -- which meant, back then, English speakers, not German speakers.
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Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
Never, then? You don't "finish" a language. Unless you mean that you have so and so many years of Spanish left in school. There's nothing stopping you from learning both simultaneously, though.Ša-Par-Artavak wrote:My history's pretty boring compared to some of the stuff I've seen here. Half my family speaks English, the other half Farsi. My father tried to teach me Farsi when I was younger but it didn't work. However, I have vowed that Farsi will definitely be my third language (when I'm finished with Español).
Online dictionary for my conlang Vanga: http://royalrailway.com/tungumaalMiin/Vanga/
#undef FEMALE
I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688
Of an Ernst'ian one.
#undef FEMALE
I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688
Of an Ernst'ian one.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
Ecch, never use vague wording on this forum...Skomakar'n wrote:Never, then? You don't "finish" a language. Unless you mean that you have so and so many years of Spanish left in school. There's nothing stopping you from learning both simultaneously, though.Ša-Par-Artavak wrote:My history's pretty boring compared to some of the stuff I've seen here. Half my family speaks English, the other half Farsi. My father tried to teach me Farsi when I was younger but it didn't work. However, I have vowed that Farsi will definitely be my third language (when I'm finished with Español).
What I meant was the level at which I become fluent enough to move on to learning Farsi. Someone's used the term "learning plateau" around here recently, I believe.
No wait... Yeah, I suppose I could learn both at once now that you mention it - only problem is, I don't have enough time.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
The only language-related thing I know is that my mother's grandmother was a monolingual Swedish speaker who only spoke enough English to order a Pepsi.
In every U.S. presidential election between 1976 and 2004, the Republican nominee for president or for vice president was either a Dole or a Bush.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
I never understand how someone can not have the time to learn another language. Just expose yourself to the language, and it'll come. You don't need to do any more active learning than looking for translations to songs, and reading up on the grammar. It'll be slow, but at least you'll have started, so that when you do have time to study it properly, you'll have where to start from.Ša-Par-Artavak wrote:No wait... Yeah, I suppose I could learn both at once now that you mention it - only problem is, I don't have enough time.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
Um, language acquisition takes time. Just like any other activity. Well, I guess I could do some casual learning every now and then, since that seems to be what you're getting at. Ah, I see it now! I was thinking about formal learning; that must be it. Alright then.Astraios wrote:I never understand how someone can not have the time to learn another language. Just expose yourself to the language, and it'll come. You don't need to do any more active learning than looking for translations to songs, and reading up on the grammar. It'll be slow, but at least you'll have started, so that when you do have time to study it properly, you'll have where to start from.Ša-Par-Artavak wrote:No wait... Yeah, I suppose I could learn both at once now that you mention it - only problem is, I don't have enough time.
Re: Not Speaking Native Language/Dialect?
Yes, that's what I meant. It may be slow, but you'd be stupid not to do it, especially if you want to learn more than one language. You can't learn a language just from formal instruction (well, you can, but you won't get very good at it), if you don't also use all the extras you can get your paws on and learn on your own.Ša-Par-Artavak wrote:Um, language acquisition takes time. Just like any other activity. Well, I guess I could do some casual learning every now and then, since that seems to be what you're getting at. Ah, I see it now! I was thinking about formal learning; that must be it. Alright then.