Pulmonic Stop

[Rin]

Yes, I just made that up, but it's about the best I can come up with to describe a phenomenon I wish to incorporate into my current conlang.

I like the idea that rather than long vowels, there is a pulmonic weakening after the first half of the long-vowel, followed by a sharp pulmonic strengthening and stressing of the second half. So rather than say, saad being [saːd], it would be more like [saˈad]. Also, note that this is not a glottal stop, but simply a brief cessation of plosivity.

Does this occur in natural languages? And if so, is there some IPA way of indicating it?

[Whimemsz]

I have no idea what you're asking because you're not using the terms correctly. Vowels aren't plosives so there can't be a "cessation of plosivity" during the production of a vowel; likewise, most stops (except for implosives, ejectives, and clicks) are "pulmonic." Unless by both "pulmonic stop" and "cessation of plosivity" you really meant to say "cessation of pulmonic airstream" or something? Either way, afaik your only options for stopping the air from your lungs reaching your mouth when you're already in the middle of production is to close off your glottis, i.e., make a glottal stop.

[Rin]

I have no idea what you're asking because you're not using the terms correctly. Vowels aren't plosives so there can't be a "cessation of plosivity" during the production of a vowel; likewise, most stops (except for implosives, ejectives, and clicks) are "pulmonic." Unless by both "pulmonic stop" and "cessation of plosivity" you really meant to say "cessation of pulmonic airstream" or something? Either way, afaik your only options for stopping the air from your lungs reaching your mouth when you're already in the middle of production is to close off your glottis, i.e., make a glottal stop.

Hmm . . . I suppose I was using the terms incorrectly. I guess what I mean is that instead of a long vowel, it just becomes a second syllable: saad [saˈ_(h)ad] or [saˈ_(ɣ)ad] with an extremely weak [h] or [ɣ] inserted (hence subscripting them).

[Lyra]

[sa.ad]
???


~Lyra

[Miiil]

I was thinking what Lyra said, but with the stress, so [sa.'ad]
Does that work?

[Rin]

Yeah, that works. I just don't want a glottal stop in between them; that's all.

[sucaeyl]

From what I understand, Spanish leer, to read, is pronounced with something like what you describe: [le.ˈer]. I could be wrong though, and I'm sure there is a slight change of vowel quality between the two syllables.

[Bob Johnson]

It sounds like the equivalent of hiatus, between two of the same vowel.

[Rin]

From what I understand, Spanish leer, to read, is pronounced with something like what you describe: [le.ˈer]. I could be wrong though, and I'm sure there is a slight change of vowel quality between the two syllables.

I studied Spanish in high school 15 years ago and hardly remember anything beyond Yo no hablo español, so I can't rightly tell one way or the other. I imagine you're correct though.

It sounds like the equivalent of hiatus, between two of the same vowel.

Yes, pretty much this exactly.

[clawgrip]

Japanese じゃぁ jaa (one of the longer version of ja, when e.g. you're about to suggest a plan that is probably replacing an older one that you have given up on for some reason) and あぁ aa (the sound used to show disappointment about something that can't be changed) both have something similar. They have a falling-rising pitch (jaa is actually falling-rising-falling) and as the pitch falls the volume also drops, sounding similar to what you're talking about.

[Rin]

Japanese じゃぁ jaa (one of the longer version of ja, when e.g. you're about to suggest a plan that is probably replacing an older one that you have given up on for some reason) and あぁ aa (the sound used to show disappointment about something that can't be changed) both have something similar. They have a falling-rising pitch (jaa is actually falling-rising-falling) and as the pitch falls the volume also drops, sounding similar to what you're talking about.

Oddly enough, it was the way my collegues were pronouncing one of our girl's names that got me wanting to do this in my conlang. Her name is さあら Saara, and they pronounce it with the LHL so it comes off to my ear as [sa.ˈaɾa] (Note, though I speak Japanese fairly well, and I've been told that I have a recognizably Okayama/Hiroshima pitch-accent pattern to my speech, I cannot myself perceive differences in pitch pattern, though on occasion, it sounds roughly like a stress pattern, but only when it's emphasized).

[clawgrip]

Japanese じゃぁ jaa (one of the longer version of ja, when e.g. you're about to suggest a plan that is probably replacing an older one that you have given up on for some reason) and あぁ aa (the sound used to show disappointment about something that can't be changed) both have something similar. They have a falling-rising pitch (jaa is actually falling-rising-falling) and as the pitch falls the volume also drops, sounding similar to what you're talking about.

Oddly enough, it was the way my collegues were pronouncing one of our girl's names that got me wanting to do this in my conlang. Her name is さあら Saara, and they pronounce it with the LHL so it comes off to my ear as [sa.ˈaɾa] (Note, though I speak Japanese fairly well, and I've been told that I have a recognizably Okayama/Hiroshima pitch-accent pattern to my speech, I cannot myself perceive differences in pitch pattern, though on occasion, it sounds roughly like a stress pattern, but only when it's emphasized).

It seems to happen a lot when people do a falling-rising pitch on a long vowel, for emphasis.
These days my accent in Japanese is just a plain Tokyo hyōjungo accent (when I'm not messing up individual words), so e.g. chopsticks are hàshi and bridge is hashí.
It took me a while to recognize pitch accents, but now it is fairly easy for me. I used to be completely oblivious to the differences, even between Kansai and Kanto accents, but now I could never mix them up. If someone's accent is significantly different from the Tokyo accent I can recognize it as such, though I basically can never place it geographically. Sometimes the dialect words help though.

[Imralu]

Some Polynesian languages distinguish long vowels from two iterations of an identical short vowel. Niuean provides an example. I think there are other examples, including languages which treat the glottal stop as a phonemic consonant, showing that the difference is not a glottal stop between the two vowels but simply a "rearticulation" of the vowel. I'm not quite clear what that means. Surely the mouth doesn't articulate the sound twice (what would it do in between?) but I assume it's about the strength of breath, two separate pulses of force, corresponding to the syllables. The break between syllables might simply be a slightly quieter patch of the same vowel sound.

[sirdanilot]

^That. A onsetless syllable doesn't necessarily have to start with a glottal stop, even though it often does in Germanic languages (German [te.ˈʔa.tɐ(ʁ)] for example). You could even have phonemic differences between, for example, /sad/, /saːd/ˌ /sa.ad/ and /saʔad/. This is even more likely in tone languages, since in stresstimed languages, such short, unstressed syllables tend to elide away (*sa.ad -> saːd or somethinɡ).

ɪ would associate /saˌad/ with a fallinɡ or risinɡ tone (depending on stress pattern in the language)ˌ and /saːd/ with a level tone. /saʔad/ would have two short vowels with any tone you want.

[Shrdlu]

Rin, do you mean something like ballistic syllables?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_syllable

[Whimemsz]

That description sounds nothing like what Rin is describing. "Ballistic syllables" according to that Wikipedia page are syllable/phonation types where the onset consonant has a "fortis" release, the vocalic nucleus is pronounced with increased "intensity," and the nucleus is followed by a period of voicelessness. Whereas Rin is talking about some sort of audible transition/differentiation between two vowels, but where the transition between the two is distinct from a glottal stop.