The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

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Whimemsz
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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Whimemsz »

I freely admit that this is a topic I know almost nothing about. I'm going by what Salmoneus told me a few months ago.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Chagen wrote:No variety of English has uvulars, especially not fucking syllabic epiglottalized uvular approximants.
I.e. "I think it can't be, so it must not".

(I have heard of uvular /r/ realizations in other English dialects, so this is just you obviously being narrowminded about what can be found in English.)

And my /r/ is not even uvular all the time; in other positions it is frequently velar or both postalveolar and velar. The epiglottalization is significant because that is what often distinguishes my velar /r/ from my un-epiglottalized velar approximant.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

AnTeallach wrote:I think Travis's /r/ is basically a "bunched r", perhaps a bit further back than usual (hence the identification as uvular). In the recordings I've heard, it's been the /l/ that's stood out, not the /r/.
This.

(My /l/ when recorded sounds awfully like a /w/ to me, except when enunciating it is clearly not a /w/ because it lacks a labial component except when preceded by a rounded vowel or, when syllabic, /w/.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Pthagnar »

i thought what you had for /r/ was a "bunched r" without coronal articulation except after another coronal which always is epiglottalized (which is not distinguished in IPA from pharyngealization), and with the dorsal articulation varying between velar and uvular.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Pthug wrote:i thought what you had for /r/ was a "bunched r" without coronal articulation except after another coronal which always is epiglottalized (which is not distinguished in IPA from pharyngealization), and with the dorsal articulation varying between velar and uvular.
Well yes, that's the long way to put it.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Pthagnar »

long, i agree, but also essential to understanding

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Bristel »

flower [flaʊwəɹ]
flour [flaʊwəɹ]
flier [flaɪəɹ]
flayer [fleɪəɹ]
flair [fleɪɹ~fler]
floor [flɔəɹ]
flora [flɔrə]
four [fɔəɹ]
poor [pʊəɹ~pɔəɹ]
cure [kʲuəɹ]
fury [fjəriː]
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīquā cupiditāte illectus hoc agō
Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by TaylorS »

tour [tʰʊɹˤ]
poor [pʰʊɹˤ]
cure [cçɝˤ]
fury [fçɝˤi]
Chagen wrote:No variety of English has uvulars, especially not fucking syllabic epiglottalized uvular approximants.
A pharyngealized R with an uvular of velar realization is very common in large parts of the US, dialectologists call it the "Molar R".

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by TaylorS »

Flower [fɫɑʊ̯ɚˤ]
Flour [fɫɑʊ̯ɚˤ]
Flier [fɫaɪ̯ɚˤ]
Flayer [fɫeːɹˤ]
Flair [fɫeːɹˤ]
Floor [fɫɔːɹˤ]
Flora [fɫɔːɹˤə]

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Ngohe »

Flower [ˈflaʊ̯.ə] ~ [flaː]
Flour [ˈflaʊ̯.ə] ~ [flaː]
Flier [ˈflɑɪ̯.ə] ~ [flɑː]
Flayer [ˈflɛɪ̯.ə]
Flair [flɛː]
Floor [flo̞ː]
Flora [ˈflo̞ː.ɹə]

four [fo̞ː]
poor [pʰo̞ː]
cure [ˈkʰjɵə̯]
fury [ˈfjɵə̯.ɹi]

Chagen wrote:
No variety of English has uvulars, especially not fucking syllabic epiglottalized uvular approximants.
In fact, some varieties have.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Here are some more words:

real
deal
cruel
duel
steal
peal
stool
pool
stale
dale
stole
dole
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by communistplot »

Travis B. wrote:Here are some more words:

real
deal
cruel
duel
steal
peal
stool
pool
stale
dale
stole
dole
[ʋiɪ̯ʊ]
[diɪ̯ʊ]
[kʋuʊ̯ʊ]
[dʲjuʊ̯ʊ]
[stiɪ̯ʊ]
[piɪ̯ʊ]
[stuʊ̯ʊ]
[puʊ̯ʊ]
[steɪ̯ʊ]
[deɪ̯ʊ]
[stoʊ̯ʊ]
[doʊ̯ʊ]
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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Nortaneous »

real /riəl/
steal /stiəl/
cruel /krul/
duel /dul/
steal /stiəl/
peal /piəl/
stool /stul/
pool /pul/
stale /steəl/
dale /deəl/
stole /stol/
dole /dol/

iəl eəl = two syllables, ul ol = one syllable, i'm assuming that's what you're looking for
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Nortaneous wrote:iəl eəl = two syllables, ul ol = one syllable, i'm assuming that's what you're looking for
I am indeed looking for which of these are pronounced monosyllabically and which of these are pronounced disyllabically. (There is actually a historical pattern here, but it probably is not obvious unless one maintains it oneself.)
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by ---- »

I only pronounce the /-ol/ ones as monosyllables.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Okay, I have a rather boring pattern; all of them are monosyllabic in everyday speech, but all of them with high vowels can break into disyllables when enunciated carefully:

real: /ˈril/ > [ˈɰˤi(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈɰˤiː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
deal: /ˈdil/ > [ˈd̥i(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈd̥iː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
cruel: /ˈkrul/ > [ˈkʰʁˤu(ː)ʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈkʰʁˤuː(w)ʊ(ː)]
duel: /ˈdul/ > [ˈd̻̥ʉ̯̆ŭʊ̯]~[ˈd̻̥ʉ̯uʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈd̻̥ʉ̯u(w)ʊ(ː)]
steal: /ˈstil/ > [ˈs̻t̻i(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈs̻t̻iː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
peal: /ˈpil/ > [ˈpʰi(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈpʰiː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
stool: /ˈstul/ > [ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯̆ŭʊ̯]~[ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯uʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯u(w)ʊ(ː)]
pool: /ˈpul/ > [ˈpʰu(ː)ʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈpʰuː(w)ʊ(ː)]
stale: /ˈstel/ > [ˈs̻t̻e(ː)ɯ̞̯]
dale: /ˈdel/ > [ˈd̥e(ː)ɯ̞̯]
stole: /ˈstol/ > [ˈs̻t̻o(ː)ʊ̯]
dole: /ˈdol/ > [ˈd̥o(ː)ʊ̯]
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Chagen »

First your /r/ is a uvular approximant, and now it's a velar one? Make up your fucking mind.
Nūdhrēmnāva naraśva, dṛk śraṣrāsit nūdhrēmanīṣṣ iźdatīyyīm woḥīm madhēyyaṣṣi.
satisfaction-DEF.SG-LOC live.PERFECTIVE-1P.INCL but work-DEF.SG-PRIV satisfaction-DEF.PL.NOM weakeness-DEF.PL-DAT only lead-FUT-3P

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by ---- »

Uvulars and velars really aren't all that different on a general level. I'm fairly sure I could understand if someone said, e.g. /ɸaund/ rather than /faund/ for <found>.
Besides, that's hardly the weirdest thing in English dialects you could be freaking out about.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Chagen wrote:First your /r/ is a uvular approximant, and now it's a velar one? Make up your fucking mind.
Do you know what allophony is?
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Pinetree »

Travis B. wrote:Okay, I have a rather boring pattern; all of them are monosyllabic in everyday speech, but all of them with high vowels can break into disyllables when enunciated carefully:

real: /ˈril/ > [ˈɰˤi(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈɰˤiː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
deal: /ˈdil/ > [ˈd̥i(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈd̥iː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
cruel: /ˈkrul/ > [ˈkʰʁˤu(ː)ʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈkʰʁˤuː(w)ʊ(ː)]
duel: /ˈdul/ > [ˈd̻̥ʉ̯̆ŭʊ̯]~[ˈd̻̥ʉ̯uʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈd̻̥ʉ̯u(w)ʊ(ː)]
steal: /ˈstil/ > [ˈs̻t̻i(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈs̻t̻iː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
peal: /ˈpil/ > [ˈpʰi(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈpʰiː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
stool: /ˈstul/ > [ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯̆ŭʊ̯]~[ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯uʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯u(w)ʊ(ː)]
pool: /ˈpul/ > [ˈpʰu(ː)ʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈpʰuː(w)ʊ(ː)]
stale: /ˈstel/ > [ˈs̻t̻e(ː)ɯ̞̯]
dale: /ˈdel/ > [ˈd̥e(ː)ɯ̞̯]
stole: /ˈstol/ > [ˈs̻t̻o(ː)ʊ̯]
dole: /ˈdol/ > [ˈd̥o(ː)ʊ̯]
How on earth do you analyse your speech so carefully?

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by ol bofosh »

real [ɹʷˠɪəɫ]
deal [dɪəɫ]
cruel [kʰɹʷˠəʊɫ]
duel [ʤjəʊɫ]
steal [stɪəɫ]
peal [pʰɪəɫ]
stool [stəʊɫ]
pool [pʰəʊɫ]
stale [stɛɪəɫ]
dale [dɛɪəɫ]
stole [stəʊɫ]
dole [dəʊɫ]

Found a new dipthong. [ɫ] really changes the dipthong for me I think. [ɫ] can also be changed to [w] or something similar, in relaxed speech.
Last edited by ol bofosh on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
It was about time I changed this.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Davoush »

Chagen wrote:
No variety of English has uvulars, especially not fucking syllabic epiglottalized uvular approximants.
I think you'll find your mistaken. Some older speakers around Tyneside and Country Durham have a uvular. Otherwise known as the "Northumbrian Burr".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northumbrian_Burr

Apparently some Irish dialects have/had a uvular too.

real [ɹijəl]
deal [dijəl]
cruel [kɾʉ:l]
duel [ʤʉ:l]
steal [stijəl]
peal [pʰijəl]
stool [stʉ:l]
pool [pʰʉ:l]
stale [stɛjəl]
dale [dɛjəl]
stole [stəʊl]
dole [dəʊl]
Last edited by Davoush on Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Hubris Incalculable wrote:How on earth do you analyse your speech so carefully?
First, I base it heavily off how I articulate various sounds and not just how those sounds sound themselves, which allows transcribing sounds more accurately than if I did it only by how they sounded. (Doing it by articulation also allows checking how things are pronounced without having to say them out loud, even though naturally there are some things that cannot be checked this way, such as voicing. But then, even voicing I often check based on the articulation for its phonation rather than merely based on how it sounds audibly.)

Second, from repeatedly testing all kinds of cases I build up a phonological model of my own idiolect (and also add to it from listening to others' speech, particularly to take idiolectal variation into account); with this model I can typically figure out how I pronounce many individual words from their phonemes without having to exhaustively pronounce them over and over as I would have to if I did not have such a model.

(I still often will test a word's pronunciation when I am not completely certain, as there may still be areas in which said model, which is continually being added to, is still fuzzy.)

Third, when I find some point where my phonological model seems to differ from how I actually pronounce a word, I go back and modify the model to match, and then go and apply that newly modified model to all other words. (These often tend to be the more interesting cases, and then the big question I have to figure out is whether these are idiosyncratic to individual words, e.g. my vowel length variation in certain contracted words, or are broadly applicable, e.g. my tendency to drop /n/ outside of stressed onsets.)

Fourth, I am able to make myself pronounce words in a range of registers, so I can deduce a wide range of differing pronunciations, rather than focusing on careful pronunciations as many are apt to.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Interesting. So far, no one seems to preserve the historical pattern here, but rather everyone has some kind of leveling going on.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by ol bofosh »

Travis B. wrote:Interesting. So far, no one seems to preserve the historical pattern here, but rather everyone has some kind of leveling going on.
What does levelling mean? That the different phones are sort of "sliding" towards each other?
It was about time I changed this.

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