The Rosenfelder Challenge

[cromulant]

I found that most people would speak simply to me (taking their cue from me about which words I knew at that point, and sometimes even copying my manner of speech, which was fun for them), and I coped with a mixture of filling in the blanks, guessing, asking for clarification (eg: 'gprthb? que es gprthb?'), and learning really fast. When people were speaking to each other, the pressure to understand was off (since I was not expected to respond), so that was a chance to just listen and understand as much as I could.

Sounds pretty suboptimal!

And you say you were discussing politics and shit fluently this way? And you told your Cocama friend you could say anything you wanted to?

Really?

[Whimemsz]

Well, politics involves lots of words like gobierno and presidente that are pretty easy for an English speaker to pick up (because of, you know, the whole thing where both languages share a bunch of cognate Latinate terms for high-register topics, like politics). So we return to the point that discussing politics in Arabic might be considerably more difficult. (In fact I strongly suspect discussing politics or law or the like in a Romance language is probably easier for an English speaker with little exposure than discussing banal quoditian things involving a bunch of noncognates!)

[ashmoonfruit]

soo.. you should go to learn the lang, and not to do anything else which might put pressure on you to understand anything?

Do you really think that's what I think? Am I really likely to think that this is what you think? Are either of us the kind of people likely to think that understanding what others are thinking is a pressure best avoided? I don't think so.

I found that most people would speak simply to me (taking their cue from me about which words I knew at that point, and sometimes even copying my manner of speech, which was fun for them), and I coped with a mixture of filling in the blanks, guessing, asking for clarification (eg: 'gprthb? que es gprthb?'), and learning really fast. When people were speaking to each other, the pressure to understand was off (since I was not expected to respond), so that was a chance to just listen and understand as much as I could.

Sounds pretty suboptimal ... And you say you were discussing politics and shit fluently this way? And you told your Cocama friend you could say anything you wanted to? ... Really?

The apparent inconsistency is down to the different scenarios in which these conversations took place, and the different degrees of fluency (I say 'fluency', not 'proficiency') available to me at the time.

The scenario I described above was drawn from my memories from early in my stay, when I sat in local bars among groups of people, some of whom I did not know. That's a more challenging environment, but even at that time and place I could say enough about subjects such as politics to meet the expectations of the context. Por exemple: 'Bush es estupido' - what else do you need to say about politics before you get up and dance? Let's consider the register here.

With my girlfriend, we spoke mostly about emotional shit, as you do (lo siento ... tienes razon ... te quiero - all the best lines ). It was a much easier situation: one-on-one, personal familiarity, endless cooperation, plenty of time - so we were able to go discuss things more deeply in a way that's not possible in a bar, whatever languages everyone speaks.

Back with my host family, it was a different register again: less intense, a little less personal, with more time between my turn to speak for me to think. So, in more involved conversations about current affairs, I was able to repeat back phrases that I had gathered from around the dinner table, and give my take on it, even at an early stage.

It's all part of the bigger picture of how this kind of thing is done.

[Pthagnar]

yep, all fairly normal stuff in the early stages of learning a new language

[ashmoonfruit]

Well, politics involves lots of words like gobierno and presidente that are pretty easy for an English speaker

Indeed. I wonder what percentage of adults on the planet would not understand 'presidente'.

discussing politics in Arabic might be considerably more difficult.

...and probably best avoided altogether!

Of course, all this kind of thing is what normally happens in an immersion scenario. All I did was give myself a carefully planned head-start, to greatly accelerate the whole process. I guess part of my task now is to keep tweaking, to try to access the benefits of immersion more, and limit the problems wherever possible. Next time I do this (probably in France and/or Germany), I will exploit a few more bits of grammar that offer immediate benefits (the first inflections/affixes I learned in Spanish that were not on my original list were -ando and -ado - I'll not miss out pres/past participles next time, they're too damn useful), and I'll plan the immersion much more consciously (in Perú, I just dived into a bar, relationship or job without a second thought about how my approach could benefit from a little adjustment in each case).

[Pthagnar]

Yes. That is all you did. It is not a big deal. This is a trend.

You will have noticed guide books? That they have in the back a wordlist? Of potentially useful words?

[ashmoonfruit]

Yes. That is all you did. It is not a big deal. This is a trend.

You will have noticed guide books? That they have in the back a wordlist? Of potentially useful words?

The word lists in guide books are different. They follow a formula that is designed to help package tourists get through hotels and taxis, try out some local cuisine, get sunburned, buy some souvenirs and fuck off back to suburbia without having to learn any more language than is in the book. They never reach the point of immersion, and they don't want to. Good for them. It's a free country (unless it's Bahrain).

My word list is designed to support more open-ended conversation, so that the user can... I don't know... get a place working in an animal sanctuary? ...form lasting friendships? ...and learn more of the language.

The similarity is superficial. The difference is not only in the intent of the user, but also in the ratio between the amount of content to learn and the resultant range of expression. As soon as the conversation veers outside the limited contexts covered by the phrase book (ie. starts to get interesting), the user is fucked. Whereas, with a bunch of fairly general nouns, adjectives, verbs and other bits and pieces, you can continue that conversation. The results are incomparable.

[Terra]

Note: Please do *not* read the following as if I were angrily or sarcastically yelling at you. Read this like as if I were earnestly and calmly speaking.

Terra:
You mean, have I studied a course with the word 'linguistics' in the title? No, but several with the word 'language'. My higher education was in English Language and Literature (which included Middle English, Old English and Old Norse) and in Education (teaching English). Linguistics were involved in close (sometimes forensic) textual analysis, translating old texts, studying the history of the English language and language development in children, teaching English as a second language, learning how to teach people with dyslexia, and so on). Why do you ask?

I ask, because for a greater part of this thread, you've been in over your head talking about things you don't know, and been hostile to anyone that suggests otherwise. The people of this board have a greater knowledge of linguistics than you do, and it would wise of you to interpret their corrections not as trying to humiliate you personally, but as trying to help you and expand your knowledge.

Anyway, the point is: I'm showing you my notes, not selling you a product - be nice.

I am. I'm telling you that your audience (the people of the internet) are going to be much more suspicious about downloading and running an executable file rather than just running some Javascript in a webpage. If I really were malicious, I'd be silent, leaving you in ignorance to commit your folly.

[Pthagnar]

if people want more words than are in a guidebook, then there are dictionaries. they come in quite small sizes and with a little practice you can look up words quite quickly. they are also quite cheap.

i found it very useful when i went to spain... to stay with people who didn't speak english very well. difference is, i didn't go "hey look at this amazing technique where *people basically get what you're talking about*. i must tell the internet about my amazing discovery! this is stupendous!". i went "well that went quite well! guess people are right.".

[ashmoonfruit]

I'm not here for off-topic and/or patronising comments (such as 'leaving you in ignorance to commit your folly'). I hope you don't talk like that to people's faces, Sheldon.

I'm here to engage in constructive discussion. I congratulate whoever added the 'foe' function. It's a shame that it can't discriminate between the intelligent and the autistic parts of an individual, but it's all we have...

I'll not be discussing this in future. I will ignore, then foe, then report.

[Whimemsz]

if you are incapable of handling interaction with people who don't bother to sugar-coat their demolitions of your statements, I suppose it is your loss because you will learn very little

[popisfizzy]

Ashmoonfruit, I bet when you were in school teachers sighed and rolled their eyes at your ~~~deep insights~~~.

[Torco]

I'm not here for off-topic and/or patronising comments (such as 'leaving you in ignorance to commit your folly'). I hope you don't talk like that to people's faces, Sheldon.

I'm here to engage in constructive discussion. I congratulate whoever added the 'foe' function. It's a shame that it can't discriminate between the intelligent and the autistic parts of an individual, but it's all we have...

I'll not be discussing this in future. I will ignore, then foe, then report.

Aw, man, you had to go all whiny and entitled. if you share something, such as an experience, you're tacitly giving other permission to talk about them. and that's not limited to "oh, look, how awesome this thing I did. aren't I great?". look, I wrote something for you. I think I'll post it when a noob says hi as well.

Torco's EZ-guide to being a ZeebNoob

1) hello. its great to have you, pickles and tea, which is the local code for have a seat, chill out, and be welcome.

2) there are some ways in which you might or might not behave that will determine if you're going to be the annoying noob, or a valuable addition to the community; this is not a prescriptive 'my community is so awesome, looks at our mores'; rather, it is a descriptive statement about what sort of behaviors will likely land you the social status of 'annoying noob'. This may be better surmised in a series of things you don't own.

a- you don't own your threads: this is a common source of dissonance, in this forum, it is local custom to derail threads, and the burdain to keep it on topic, should you want to, is yours; it's okay to go 'hey, guise, wanna talk about the thing we were talking about'? it's not okay to go 'stop derailing my thread, its my thread, talk about what I want or get out of it'.

b- you don't own other people's speech. people here are mean. not all people, but some people. it is generally agreed that people are entitled to tell you you're an idiot if they have a point. people are entitled to respond to you in ways you don't want them to respond, challenging you on the validity of the question you're asking, or stuff.

c- you don't own discourse on your content. when you post, you submit your stuff for public critique, you sort of put it in the public domain, at least as far as judgement goes; people can and most likely will tell you its wrong on some level, or that you're wrong on some level, or something. if you don't want criticism on something, I'd recommend you don't share it.

d- you don't own the mods. you can report people's posts, but really, don't do it, and don't summon the mods all "hey, mod, he's derailing my thread, ban hiiim".

e- you don't own knowledge. other people know more than you. not all people, but here there's experts on a few subjects; there's grad-level guys in philosophy, linguistics, there's mathematicians, programmers, blablabla. most likely, you don't know better... when in doubt, assume others may actually be right.

3) have fun. that's an order, private.

[zompist]

Torco speaks words of wisdom. Ash, you're kind of starting off on the wrong foot, I advise you to listen to the man.

I think there's a bit of a disconnect here, because your message is more or less "You don't need to know a lot of grammar and words to use a language!" Which is true as far as it goes. But you're on a board filled with people who enjoy and value knowing a lot of grammar and words— in other words, knowing languages very well. We're not, in general, people who need weird old tips on learning languages fast.

Also, you know, don't oversell. You had a good experience, and maybe you have ideas on how to spread or monetize it. Well, good for you. But recognize the limitations of your methods as well. Most phrasebooks are aimed at tourists, for instance, because few people have the opportunity to spend 10 weeks in the Peruvian jungle. (And there are phrasebooks aimed at backpackers. I have a lovely little one for Quechua published by Lonely Planet; though it does have phrases it also has a pithy grammatical sketch and lexicon, so you can create your own sentences.)

[Thry]

I hope you don't talk like that to people's faces, Sheldon.

Actually there are a lot of Aspie's here.

What Torco said is actually helpful, too.

[Torco]

looks like we've been getting loads of entitled newcomers lately, for some reason.

[ashmoonfruit]

Torco, I appreciate your effort there, and I'm glad of your insight into 'Zeeb' norms. As has been discussed, knowledge of register is very important. If I may put another case, from the POV of a 'noob', here's a sample of quotes taken from throughout this thread:

Pthug: “a tiny soul”
Pthug: “is your name henry? what is your favourite interjection?”
Whimemsz: “go learn about languages, please, before you lecture us”
Yng: “You can't do French, stop it”
Rodlox: “unless you don't know what a cipher is”
Yng: “la la la la la if I just refuse to engage with any arguments against my tenuous position there's no way I can ever be wrong la la la la ... I suppose if he blocks enough people he can convince himself the ZBB is agreeing by omission, or something”
Miekko: “This is quite genuine bullshit.”
Miekko’s signature: “... gets far more enjoyment out of seeing himself as a free spirit among stuffed shirts than from engaging in any kind of exchange with us. he's gonna use the board as an intellectual fleshlight, not an intellectual partner -kereb, re: unnamed poster” - that’ll be me.
Pthug: “you ... don't mind looking like a fool and ... playing the clown” - true, and I think this is a good thing, but why make a point of it?
Terra: “for a greater part of this thread, you've been in over your head talking about things you don't know, and been hostile to anyone that suggests otherwise. ... If I really were malicious, I'd be silent, leaving you in ignorance to commit your folly.”

...oh, and now “whiney”

Now, I've tried to engage with the interesting points that have been made, by these people as well as others, while being good-natured about the banter, and only using 'foe' when it looks like doing so might thin this stuff out a bit. If that's 'hostile', then the word has a new meaning. Perhaps someone could produce a similar collection of off-hand comments that I've made? I doubt it.

As I've been accused of 'lecturing' already, I'll allow myself to do just that, briefly: Whatever the conventions of the group, common courtesy should be one of them, unless you prefer to be an insular clique.

Now can we get on with the conversation like civilised people? I'm bored of this.

[Vuvuzela]

As I've been accused of 'lecturing' already, I'll allow myself to do just that, briefly: Whatever the conventions of the group, common courtesy should be one of them, unless you prefer to be an insular clique.

The Conventions of the Group, in order of importance, are:

* Some conventions
* Some mores.
*Don't police common courtesy
* More conventions
*Common courtesy

Some fora put these in a different order than others. On one forum I go on, people will politely tell you to be polite, and no-one's allowed to ridicule one another, and everyone tries their best to make friends with everyone else.
This is not that forum.

[Torco]

Some fora put these in a different order than others. On one forum I go on, people will politely tell you to be polite, and no-one's allowed to ridicule one another, and everyone tries their best to make friends with everyone else.
This is not that forum.

you talking about the cbb? the cbb is like that. fruitman, I think your vibe will go down better over there, bro.
xD hell, I remember once saying something like 'ye yanks" over there and BAM, everyone was all like "dude, not cool, not cool". You'd have to go into extensive details about someone's ancestry, sexual habits and personal hygiene here for that to happen. on the flipside, you're gonna get flak. "get used to flak. embrace flak, flak back if you will, but don't whine." seems to be the norm here. and, on second thought, its not all that bad.
[post a little picture of a nice lady with some milk on her lip, though, and that's another thing entirely]

Now, I've tried to engage with the interesting points that have been made

no, you've tried to engage with the easy points that have been made, with the points you're comfortable with.

[Vuvuzela]

Some fora put these in a different order than others. On one forum I go on, people will politely tell you to be polite, and no-one's allowed to ridicule one another, and everyone tries their best to make friends with everyone else.
This is not that forum.

you talking about the cbb? the cbb is like that.

No, I'm talking about this one transgender support forum thing. Which makes sense, because it's a support forum, but literally the only possible problem with how anyone looks in any picture is the lack of a smile, and even on the rare occasion when some other criticism is leveled, it's never phrased as "Lady, you have more makeup on your face than you have face."
CBB is also sort of like that, but I don't post there that often. If anything, I sort of lurk.

[Kereb]

hey Venezuela how come you don't come on IRC any more

[ashmoonfruit]

Torco speaks words of wisdom. Ash, you're kind of starting off on the wrong foot, I advise you to listen to the man.

I'm listening, both appreciatively (thank you, Torca) and critically (why list 'off topic' as grounds for reporting if it's a passtime? ...and so on)

I think there's a bit of a disconnect here, because your message is more or less "You don't need to know a lot of grammar and words to use a language!" Which is true as far as it goes. But you're on a board filled with people who enjoy and value knowing a lot of grammar and words

No, that's not really it. In a nutshell, it's this: "With a vocabulary so small that a child could learn it in a week using a flashcard program, and a morsel of grammar learned the same way, you can learn enough of a language (including one that you've made up yourself) to start speaking it with a freedom that will propel your understanding forward at a greatly accelerated rate (and if it's your own conlang, speaking it will bring it alive in new ways)". This message is not addressed to linguists who prefer their own methods, but to other amateurs and non-specialist language learners.

Although I arrived with the assumption that a conlang forum would be filled with conlangers, I realised early on that this place is more about linguistics (recreational linguistics, even?) than conlangs. This was evident from the fact that I posted my conlang, and it was ignored (although the pdf was download dozens of times - perhaps by visitors?). So, it's an odd sort of conlang forum - how would a Jabba-inspired kid with a language of 50 words get on?

But, this 'Rosenfelder Challenge' topic turned out to be of much more interest to the community. Great. It's just unfortunate that individual egos (including mine, plus the collective ego of expertise) somewhat marred the atmos' here. I think the best thing I can do is find a way to continue the conversation with Grinning Maniac and others (here and elsewhere) who are enthusiastic, so that we aren't distracted by all that.

There is another disconnect as well, between the kind of language teaching/learning that continues to be espoused by linguists and practised in educational institutions (in which I trained and worked as a language teacher), and the experiences of the lay public who have been taught to find language learning baffling. Relieving that bafflement by bypassing the current orthodoxy and showing people who have never heard of Ogden that languages can be learned easily is worthwhile. Maybe it's something that only an amateur can do.

Lest you suspect that I came here with ulterior motives, "oversell" and "monetize"? How vulgar.

[Thry]

Although I arrived with the assumption that a conlang forum would be filled with conlangers, I realised early on that this place is more about linguistics (recreational linguistics, even?) than conlangs. This was evident from the fact that I posted my conlang, and it was ignored (although the pdf was download dozens of times - perhaps by visitors?).

That's explainable on grounds that serious conlanging involves serious linguistics. I mean, this place is about conlanging, and what you cite is not evidence of anything (I hope this doesn't sound hostile).

[Kereb]

baw I posted about my conlang and not enough people were impressed

it happens.

but at the very least I was able to find reasons to ignore the people trying to chip away at my framing of the issue as "free spirited people-lover versus stuffed-shirted academics" and will continue to see my failure to present my linguistically uninteresting material to linguophiles in that light

man whatever blows your hair back

anyway I'm off to keep talking about myself in a smaller echo chamber where i can conitnue to stay in character

k peace; have a good'er.

[ashmoonfruit]

Although I arrived with the assumption that a conlang forum would be filled with conlangers, I realised early on that this place is more about linguistics (recreational linguistics, even?) than conlangs. This was evident from the fact that I posted my conlang, and it was ignored (although the pdf was download dozens of times - perhaps by visitors?).

That's explainable on grounds that serious conlanging involves serious linguistics. I mean, this place is about conlanging, and what you cite is not evidence of anything (I hope this doesn't sound hostile).

I have now given up on the idea of using ZZB to discuss conlangs.

No, it doesn't sound hostile, it sounds unjustifiably dismissive. Have you seen the state of Huttese? That's possibly the best-loved conlang after Quenya/Sindarin, and there's barely anything to it. What is a 'serious' conlang? (Is it OK to question these assumptions?) I think a 'serious' conlang needs enough vocab to be capable of being spoken (even if only by a theoretical alien) - yet a minority of the conlangs I've seen here have anything like enough vocab. Some of it looks more like linguistic masturbation than an attempt at functional language. (It's OK to be rude, right? - I'm not being personal).