The Loom of Language

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
Post Reply
User avatar
installer_swan
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:47 am
Location: Hic
Contact:

The Loom of Language

Post by installer_swan »

I actually just happened to see Ashmoon's locked thread about learning Spanish through immersion from a "basic Spanish" vocabulary jumping board. So, I thought of sharing this interesting book, written shortly after WW 2, so that's got to count for something of course, but the author made a similar point about
The Loom of Language wrote:The greatest impediment, common to most branches of school and university education, is the dead hand of Plato We have not yet got away from education designed for the sons of gentlemen. Educational Platomsm sacrifices realizable proficiency by encouraging the pursuit of unattainable perfection. The child or the immigrant learns a language by blundering his or her way into greater self-confidence. Adults accept the mistakes of children with tolerant good-humour, and the genial flow of social intercourse is not interrupted by a barrage of pedantic protests. The common sense of ordinary parents or customs officials recognizes that commonplace communication unhampered by the sting of grammatical guilt must precede real progress in the arts of verbal precision. Most of us could learn languages more easily if we could learn to forgive our own linguistic trespasses. Where perfectionist pedantry has inserted the sung of grammatical guilt a sense of social inferiority rubs salt into the wound. According to the standards of educated adults., very few adolescents can speak and write the home language with fluency and grammatical precision before eighteen years of age. To be able to speak more than two new languages without any trace of foreign accent or idiom is a life-work.

So linguistic polish is a perquisite of prosperous people whose formal education has been supplemented by the attentions of foreign governesses and by frequent trips abroad It is the cultural trademark of a leisure class Indeed no type of knowledge has moie ostentation value. No one who wants to speak a foreign language like a native can rely upon this book or on any other Its aim is to lighten the burden of learning for the home student who is less ambitious. One of the useful results of recent attempts to devise languages for world citizenship has been to show how educational practice, dictated by anti-social theories which gratify the itch for Ieisure-class ostentation, exaggerates the difficulties arising fiom the intrinsic characteristics of language. The intrinsic difficulties depend on the large amount of
effort expended before tangible results of self-expression or comprehension bring their own reward. Self-assurance depends on reducing this period of unrequited effort to a minimum. Pioneers of international communication such as C K Ogden, the inventor of Basic English, have made a special study of this, because the success of their work depends on the ease with which a language for world-wide use can be learned. Whether their own proposals prosper or fail, they have revolutionized the problem of learning existing languages
It is interesting that thanks to the internet and audio learning courses, the need for `foreign governesses' is obviated. Bodmer does make an interesting case for learning most European languages with a little basic grammar and maximising the utility of a large English vocabulary by learning a few useful thum rules to guess etymology and appropriate sound change to get the synonym in other European languages. However, this very style of pedagogy shows quite clearly that this kind of paratrooper immersion would work best for English speakers only in Germanic/Romance languages.

And if you're interested the book is available on the internet archive:
http://archive.org/details/TheLoomOfLanguage
http://archive.org/stream/TheLoomOfLang ... guage.djvu
..- ... ..- --.- .. .-. --- -..-

User avatar
Pthagnar
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:45 pm
Location: Hole of Aspiration

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by Pthagnar »

I can't really say that the language education I got was "education designed for the sons of gentlemen". Maybe in the Forties, that would be a fair description of the kind of education that might have been got by bourgeois children who were taught a foreign language with the aim of rendering them fit for polite society and a Grand Tour they could only afford in theory, but... nobody complains that modern industrialised language teaching of the sort that most people get is too strict, stinking of aristocratic privilege or (god forbid!) overly focused on grammatical niceties. Its real problems are quite different.

User avatar
GrinningManiac
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by GrinningManiac »

My problem was the opposite. Schools taught vocab and phrases, not grammar. We woild say "cuando es la perro" because we hadn't the foggiest concerning the rhyme or eason behind thr various endings and articles

Thry
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 2085
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:15 pm
Location: Spain

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by Thry »

when is dog?

User avatar
installer_swan
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:47 am
Location: Hic
Contact:

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by installer_swan »

@Pthug, I agree, sometimes I think the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction. We have gone from teaching an overly prescriptivist Latin based English grammar to not teaching any grammar to the extent that even simple grammatical terms like tense and aspect are something most people are clueless about.

However, growing up in India we had to take Sanskrit for five years, and that is still taught in a very classical education kind of way to the extent that most students would be able to recite conjugation and declension tables for and answer simple questions by replacing the interrogative with an appropriate noun, but had no useful competence in the language.
..- ... ..- --.- .. .-. --- -..-

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by Salmoneus »

Is there such a thing as useful competence in Sanskrit?

The aim of studying dead prestige languages has very little to do with being able to speak them.
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

Atom
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 1:51 pm

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by Atom »

Salmoneus wrote:Is there such a thing as useful competence in Sanskrit?

The aim of studying dead prestige languages has very little to do with being able to speak them.
Well, I guess, could they read old documents in Sanskrit? That seems to be a pretty good baseline for dead-language competency.

User avatar
GrinningManiac
Lebom
Lebom
Posts: 214
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by GrinningManiac »

Ean wrote:when is dog?
Whoops. I meant "How much is the dog" but "When is dog" is quite funny so I'll pretend that was deliberate.

User avatar
installer_swan
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:47 am
Location: Hic
Contact:

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by installer_swan »

Salmoneus wrote:Is there such a thing as useful competence in Sanskrit?

The aim of studying dead prestige languages has very little to do with being able to speak them.
I'm not talking about speech (there are some crazy spoken Sanskrit revivalists out there, but in all likelihood it was never a spoken language, except in formal situations quite similar to Fuṣḥā today). But with 5 years of study is it unreasonable to expect being able to read fairly uncomplicated texts and classical plays? At the end of five years we still hadn't read a single original text, except for some couplets, which too most students couldn't translate/understand on their own, but just memorised a standard translation given to us.
..- ... ..- --.- .. .-. --- -..-

User avatar
installer_swan
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:47 am
Location: Hic
Contact:

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by installer_swan »

GrinningManiac wrote:
Ean wrote:when is dog?
Whoops. I meant "How much is the dog" but "When is dog" is quite funny so I'll pretend that was deliberate.
American English with its frequent /t/ -> /d/ will do that to you :)
..- ... ..- --.- .. .-. --- -..-

User avatar
Pthagnar
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:45 pm
Location: Hole of Aspiration

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by Pthagnar »

installer_swan wrote:However, growing up in India we had to take Sanskrit for five years, and that is still taught in a very classical education kind of way to the extent that most students would be able to recite conjugation and declension tables for and answer simple questions by replacing the interrogative with an appropriate noun, but had no useful competence in the language.
I can well believe this. It is not typical of Western education, though. I do not even think the few people who are still lucky enough to get taught Latin in the West get such an oldschool curriculum, vide the Cambridge Latin Course with Caecilius, Grumio etc.

User avatar
Salmoneus
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3197
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 5:00 pm
Location: One of the dark places of the world

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by Salmoneus »

installer_swan wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:Is there such a thing as useful competence in Sanskrit?

The aim of studying dead prestige languages has very little to do with being able to speak them.
I'm not talking about speech (there are some crazy spoken Sanskrit revivalists out there, but in all likelihood it was never a spoken language, except in formal situations quite similar to Fuṣḥā today). But with 5 years of study is it unreasonable to expect being able to read fairly uncomplicated texts and classical plays? At the end of five years we still hadn't read a single original text, except for some couplets, which too most students couldn't translate/understand on their own, but just memorised a standard translation given to us.
Again, it all comes down to what the purpose of this education is. The purpose of Latin-learning used not to be to be able to actually read Latin, but to have Learnt Latin, which is to say to be able to prove that you had gone through a certain initiatory ritual involving a lot of chanting interrupted by discussion of obscure (almost, we might say, theological) points of doctrine couched in impenetrable jargon, topped off with the memorisation of sacred texts. These rituals, for the individual, proved membership of a certain class, and for society as a whole had a magical power to prevent social and cultural degradation and maintain the value of society in the eyes of the gods and ancestors.

Is it different for Sanskrit?
Blog: [url]http://vacuouswastrel.wordpress.com/[/url]

But the river tripped on her by and by, lapping
as though her heart was brook: Why, why, why! Weh, O weh
I'se so silly to be flowing but I no canna stay!

User avatar
installer_swan
Sanci
Sanci
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:47 am
Location: Hic
Contact:

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by installer_swan »

Salmoneus wrote:These rituals, for the individual, proved membership of a certain class, and for society as a whole had a magical power to prevent social and cultural degradation and maintain the value of society in the eyes of the gods and ancestors.

Is it different for Sanskrit?
Nope. That's a pretty accurate description of all classical languages and associated literatures. However, with the introduction of a more egalitarian/universal education one would assume that this prestige signalling no longer makes sense since everyone who went to school learns this stuff. But making changes to the school curriculum is a laborious process and all political interests are naturally very strongly invested in the indoctrination of the young making it very difficult to reform the pedagogy.
..- ... ..- --.- .. .-. --- -..-

User avatar
clawgrip
Smeric
Smeric
Posts: 1723
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:21 am
Location: Tokyo

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by clawgrip »

Sounds like one of the main purposes of English in Japan (especially university entrance exams).

User avatar
linguoboy
Sanno
Sanno
Posts: 3681
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:00 am
Location: Rogers Park/Evanston

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by linguoboy »

installer_swan wrote:
GrinningManiac wrote:
Ean wrote:when is dog?
Whoops. I meant "How much is the dog" but "When is dog" is quite funny so I'll pretend that was deliberate.
American English with its frequent /t/ -> /d/ will do that to you :)
/t/ > /d/? /t/ > [ɾ], certainly, but this is still distinct from /d/ > [ɾ] IMD due to subphonemic differences in vowel length and height.

After /n/, both sounds get assimilated IMD, but /t/ usually leaves behind glottalisation whereas /d/ does not.

Travis B.
Sumerul
Sumerul
Posts: 3570
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:47 pm
Location: Milwaukee, US

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by Travis B. »

linguoboy wrote:
installer_swan wrote:
GrinningManiac wrote:
Ean wrote:when is dog?
Whoops. I meant "How much is the dog" but "When is dog" is quite funny so I'll pretend that was deliberate.
American English with its frequent /t/ -> /d/ will do that to you :)
/t/ > /d/? /t/ > [ɾ], certainly, but this is still distinct from /d/ > [ɾ] IMD due to subphonemic differences in vowel length and height.
Okay, so you're someone who does not merge unstressed intervocalic /t/ and /d/ aside from Canadian Raising effects (in that you also preserve a vowel length distinction)!

I knew such people had to exist, and that this was not some idiosyncrasy of my own dialect!
linguoboy wrote:After /n/, both sounds get assimilated IMD, but /t/ usually leaves behind glottalisation whereas /d/ does not.
I have a somewhat different pattern.

Unstressed intervocalic /nt/ either turns to [ɾ̃] or is elided (in free variation) (except final /nt/ before a vowel will in many forms become [n] instead) and the preceding vowel is short (but not glottalized) and nasalized. In careful speech most cases of this can become [nt] or [ntʰ], but in gonna an underlying /nt/ must always be [ɾ̃] or elided.

Historical unstressed intervocalic /nd/ either is phonemically preserved as [nd] or is phonemically merged with /n/ as either [n], [ɾ̃], or being elided (all in free variation), and in all cases the preceding vowel is long and nasalized. Forms merged with /n/ may become the [nd] in careful speech, but forms that are [nd] rarely if ever become [n], [ɾ̃], or elided.
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

User avatar
Pthagnar
Avisaru
Avisaru
Posts: 702
Joined: Fri Sep 13, 2002 12:45 pm
Location: Hole of Aspiration

Re: The Loom of Language

Post by Pthagnar »

english dialectology dorks go home

Post Reply