English: long sandwich

[finlay]

I've always heard it called a doner kebab too, audibly without the umlaut. I dunno, anyway, it's an odd thing. If I went into a late-night middle-eastern restaurant (possibly while drunk) and asked for a kebab, I'd probably get one of these. If I went into a posher daytime restaurant or my neighbour's garden barbecue and asked for a kebab, I'd get an assortment of meat and vegetables on a skewer. It's context dependent, but I guess the second kind would be the 'default'.

I had no idea the second kind was called a shish kebab until this thread, and I always thought doner kebab referred to the kind of meat (veal or lamb, I think, shaved off one of those big rotating poles), rather than the style (ie meat in pitta bread) of the thing – because people refer to it as "doner meat".

[Astraios]

You're the only BE speaker I know who would. This wasn't a word I'd ever encountred before going to Germany.

Well, sorry for being an anomaly. xD

[Travis B.]

And I still wouldn't call a döner kebab a "kebab", I'd call it a "döner kebab".

You're the only BE speaker I know who would. This wasn't a word I'd ever encountred before going to Germany.

(assuming the word you are talking about is "döner") Really? I've watched enough British food television (that made it here to the US) to have heard "döner", though until this thread I would have guess it was <donna>. I remember there was some guy in a segment on Gordon Ramsey's F Word that did a small report on them and the term was used throughout and he didn't seem to be couching it like it was a word his audience might not know.

You're an exception here. The typical American wouldn't have the least clue what a döner is if they didn't actually see it or the gigantic pile of meat it is made from, where then they'd call it a gyro.

[linguoboy]

I had no idea the second kind was called a shish kebab until this thread, and I always thought doner kebab referred to the kind of meat (veal or lamb, I think, shaved off one of those big rotating poles), rather than the style (ie meat in pitta bread) of the thing – because people refer to it as "doner meat".

Döner is the aorist of Turkish dönmek which means "turn". (Greek γύρος gyros is a direct calque.) So it does refer to the style of cooking the meat. Originally, döner kebap was served on a plate with pita on the side; wrapping it in lavash or stuffing it in pita is a later innovation, one which I believe dates back only as far as the 60s.

[Shm Jay]

So in other words "döner kebab" is just meat cooking on a spit?

[Travis B.]

So in other words "döner kebab" is just meat cooking on a spit?

Um, no. It is not just meat cooking on a spit. (A whole chicken put on a vertical spit is not döner kebab.) Of course this should have been obvious.

[linguoboy]

So in other words "döner kebab" is just meat cooking on a spit?

Stacked meat on a vertical spit. At least that's traditional; nowadays commercial döner/gyros meat comes as a reconstituted cylinder. What it never is, however, is a recognisable chunk taken out of an animal. A ham twirling on a spike is not a döner.

[dunomapuka]

And I still wouldn't call a döner kebab a "kebab", I'd call it a "döner kebab".

You're the only BE speaker I know who would. This wasn't a word I'd ever encountred before going to Germany.

(assuming the word you are talking about is "döner") Really? I've watched enough British food television (that made it here to the US) to have heard "döner", though until this thread I would have guess it was <donna>. I remember there was some guy in a segment on Gordon Ramsey's F Word that did a small report on them and the term was used throughout and he didn't seem to be couching it like it was a word his audience might not know.

You're an exception here. The typical American wouldn't have the least clue what a döner is if they didn't actually see it or the gigantic pile of meat it is made from, where then they'd call it a gyro.

A third alternative is shawarma, the Arabic form. That's the most common one you'd find around here (NYC), except if you're in a Greek diner. Since such diners are unlikely to enthusiastically display the "gyro" roasting on the spit, whereas lots of little "shawarma" places do exactly that, most people probably don't know that these two foods are more or less the same thing. And the word döner remains largely unknown. I never saw it before I was in Germany in 2003.


As for the sandwich: Usually a "hero," though a "sub" if it's actually at Subway, I guess. If I'm somewhere that is specifically a "hoagie" place, i.e. it's advertising some particular Philly or Pittsburgh style, then it's a "hoagie." Likewise for a New Orleans po' boy.

(the Pittsburgh hoagie bread seems a little different from the normal hero I'm accustomed to... and I don't think it's very good.)

[Legion]

A third alternative is shawarma, the Arabic form.

Which is ironically is just a loan from Turkish çevirmek, another verb meaning "to turn".

[Gulliver]

What do you call it? A sandwich. If I was ordering one and there was a variety, it would be in a baguette or stick (which refers to the break, but not the sandwich itself). But, it's still a sandwich.
Where are you from? South-East England
Where do you live now? South-West England
What else might have influenced your choice? It's. A. Sandwich.

[hwhatting]

I tend to be more a fan of belegte Brote* myself, particularly when the bread is good and robust.

Oder ein Mettbrötchen...

[*] There's not a good equivalent in English. "Open-face(d) sandwich" generally implies a hot filling,

Russian has even loaned the word (бутерброд but'erbród).

Döner is the aorist of Turkish dönmek which means "turn". (Greek γύρος gyros is a direct calque.) So it does refer to the style of cooking the meat. Originally, döner kebap was served on a plate with pita on the side; wrapping it in lavash or stuffing it in pita is a later innovation, one which I believe dates back only as far as the 60s.

That method of serving was invented by Turkish immigrants in Germany (there was an article in the SPIEGEL not long ago). I was told by Turkish friends that this way of serving is almost unknown in Turkey and if you ask for döner kebap, you'll get the dish on a plate as you describe.

[Magb]

In Norway "kebab" is the döner style, and the things on skewers, which are much less common, are "shish kebabs". Most Norwegians probably wouldn't even know what "döner" means.

By the way, this is what kebabs in Norway usually look like:


Yeah, they're pretty disgusting.

[Astraios]

That actually looks really good and I want one.

[Bob Johnson]

... corn?

[Rui]

A third alternative is shawarma, the Arabic form. That's the most common one you'd find around here (NYC), except if you're in a Greek diner. Since such diners are unlikely to enthusiastically display the "gyro" roasting on the spit, whereas lots of little "shawarma" places do exactly that, most people probably don't know that these two foods are more or less the same thing. And the word döner remains largely unknown. I never saw it before I was in Germany in 2003.

Forgot about shawarma...I've heard that everywhere except Europe (well, Germany really), there it's döner. Even in South Africa, they were referred to as shawarmas, never as döner, kebabs, döner kebabs, etc.

(Though with the SA accent, it sounded more like "shwarma" than "shawarma")

[Magb]

The best part is that there's lettuce at the bottom, but you'll invariably throw the thing away long before you get to it.

More importantly, is it a sandwich? (Answer: no, it's not.)

[Legion]

Forgot about shawarma...I've heard that everywhere except Europe (well, Germany really)

It's pretty common in France, we seem to have trouble deciding if we want to call it döner, kebab or shawarma (and more rarely gyros).

[linguoboy]

Yeah, they're pretty disgusting.

No argument here!

IME, "shawarma" is most commonly used when the meat involved is chicken. I have come across "chicken gyros" (in which case they use the same kind of reconstituted meat they would for regular gyros) but never, ever *"chicken döner", not even in Germany.

[jal]

I've heard that everywhere except Europe (well, Germany really), there it's döner.

You haven't heard it all then. In the Netherlands, it's definitely always called "shoarma", probably due to the fact that traditionally, the stuff is sold by Egyptians, not Turks. There's dönner too, in Turkish restaurants, but I've never eaten it, as it doesn't typically come as fast foodin the places I live and visit.


JAL

[hwhatting]

BTW on "shish kebab". Here in Central Asia shish kebab is always minced meat on a skewer, never sliced meat - that would be simply "kebab".
EDIT: Don't listen to me, I've mixed things up. Shish kebab is sliced meat, minced meat is lyulya kebab.

[Přemysl]

BTW on "shish kebab". Here in Central Asia shish kebab is always minced meat on a skewer, never sliced meat - that would be simply "kebab".

I have to ask. How the heck does minced meat stay on a skewer? I have a hard enough time getting a hamburger to stay in one piece when it is sitting on a griddle never mind hanging impaled on a stick..

[Legion]

There's minced and minced~

[Přemysl]

There's minced and minced~

Oh you mean it is spiced fruit? Or is it even yet another form of minced meat?

[communistplot]

And I still wouldn't call a döner kebab a "kebab", I'd call it a "döner kebab".

You're the only BE speaker I know who would. This wasn't a word I'd ever encountred before going to Germany.

(assuming the word you are talking about is "döner") Really? I've watched enough British food television (that made it here to the US) to have heard "döner", though until this thread I would have guess it was <donna>. I remember there was some guy in a segment on Gordon Ramsey's F Word that did a small report on them and the term was used throughout and he didn't seem to be couching it like it was a word his audience might not know.

You're an exception here. The typical American wouldn't have the least clue what a döner is if they didn't actually see it or the gigantic pile of meat it is made from, where then they'd call it a gyro.

A third alternative is shawarma, the Arabic form. That's the most common one you'd find around here (NYC), except if you're in a Greek diner. Since such diners are unlikely to enthusiastically display the "gyro" roasting on the spit, whereas lots of little "shawarma" places do exactly that, most people probably don't know that these two foods are more or less the same thing. And the word döner remains largely unknown. I never saw it before I was in Germany in 2003.


As for the sandwich: Usually a "hero," though a "sub" if it's actually at Subway, I guess. If I'm somewhere that is specifically a "hoagie" place, i.e. it's advertising some particular Philly or Pittsburgh style, then it's a "hoagie." Likewise for a New Orleans po' boy.

(the Pittsburgh hoagie bread seems a little different from the normal hero I'm accustomed to... and I don't think it's very good.)

Here in Manhattan gyros are more common from my experience than Shawarma, there are a couple Arabic places, mostly downtown, but generally all the well known places are Greek or Greek-inspired, like Gyro II which has the best Gyros I've ever eaten.

[ná'oolkiłí]

Here in Manhattan gyros are more common from my experience than Shawarma, there are a couple Arabic places, mostly downtown, but generally all the well known places are Greek or Greek-inspired, like Gyro II which has the best Gyros I've ever eaten.

Hahaha, I guess it's because I live downtown, but I see shawarma places everywhere but pretty few gyro places. Where's Gyro II, btw?