Non-obvious placename pronunciations

[Travis B.]

I'm happiest when they do both, tbh. Can be a pain tho.

And that is what I am switching to doing, even though it is going to be more work writing out X-SAMPA to feed into the X-SAMPA-to-IPA translator....

[Salmoneus]

Alright, I'll do it, but I can't gurantee the accuracy of any phonemic transcription because my dialect is way fucked up and I have to rely on knowledge that standard American English is basically the reverse of the NCVS.

Here, I'll give it my first try.

Michigan placenames:

Iosco- /aI.As.koU/ [ai.as.koU].

Ypsilanti- /Ip.sI.l{n.ti/ [I\p.sI\.lE@~.ti].

Mackinac /m{.kI.nO/ [mE@.kI\.nA].

Tawas /taU.wAs/ [taU.was].

One simple advantage of using proper phoneme symbols: it lets people know how to pronounce things. If you read a normal phonemic rendering of a placename, you should then be able to pronounce it correctly - you'll pronounce it with whatever accent you normally have, but natives will interpret you as saying it correctly-with-an-accent. If, on the other hand, you try to copy the phonetic realisation that natives have then they will perceive you as mispronouncing it, unless you change the whole of the rest of your accent to match (and even if you try to do this they'll probably think you're mocking them).

[Ser]

Viktor, I think you should learn about what stress is as well...

Speaking of Waukesha and Ouachita, and of Wichita, I wonder what the diachronics of placenames having /ɔː/ for final a is...

Perhaps these place names were borrowed first into French, where final <a> was [ɑ]? Alternating with [ʌ]/[ɔ] as Quebec French continues to do? E.g. Canada [kanadɑ] ~ [kanad{ʌ/ɔ}]. (The second pronunciation of the vowel is not that rounded, so it's variously transcribed [ɔ] or [ʌ].) The use of <ou> for [w] is rather telling in the case of Ouachita at least.

[Travis B.]

Speaking of Waukesha and Ouachita, and of Wichita, I wonder what the diachronics of placenames having /ɔː/ for final a is...

Perhaps these place names were borrowed first into French, where final <a> was [ɑ]? (~Alternating with [ʌ] as Quebec French continues to do? E.g. Canada [kanadɑ] ~ [kanadʌ]). The use of <ou> for [w] is rather telling in the case of Ouachita at least.

Add Arkansas to that list.

And I was thinking of that... but then the question is why did it get rounded, at least in cot-caught-unmerged varieties, rather than merging with standard /ɑ/...

[Ser]

Add Arkansas to that list.

And I was thinking of that... but then the question is why did it get rounded, at least in cot-caught-unmerged varieties, rather than merging with standard /ɑ/...

The second pronunciation of the vowel is not that rounded, so it's variously transcribed [ɔ] or [ʌ]. If 20th/21st century linguists disagree on whether to call it rounded or not, it wouldn't be surprising if English speakers centuries ago heard it as their own [ɔ].

[Viktor77]

Alright, I am going to do this properly, here you go:

Michigan placenames:

Iosco- /aɪ.'ɑs.koʊ/ [ai.'as.koʊ]

Ypsilanti- /'ɪp.sɪ.læn.ti/ '[ɪ*pˈ.sɪ*.lɛə̃.ti]

Mackinac /'mæ.kɪ.nɔ/ ['mɛə.kɪ*.nɑ]

Tawas- /'taʊ.wɑs/ ['taʊ.was]

There doesn't exist any IPA symbol to write my [ɪ] so I used [ɪ*].

[Ser]

Viktor, unlike dictionaries published in the US using Webster's respelling, the IPA stress mark goes before the syllable it acts on, not after. "Viktor" [ˈvɪk.tɚ], "disable" [dɪ.ˈseɪbɫ̩], or [dɪs.ˈeɪbɫ̩] if you prefer. I'm actually quite surprised that after all these years (4 years and 364 days, heh) you're not aware of this...

[Viktor77]

Viktor, unlike dictionaries published in the US using Webster's respelling, the IPA stress mark goes before the syllable it acts on, not after. "Viktor" [ˈvɪk.tɚ], "disable" [dɪ.ˈseɪbɫ̩], or [dɪs.ˈeɪbɫ̩] if you prefer. I'm actually quite surprised that after all these years you're not aware of this...

They never required me in my French phonetics class (where I studied most the IPA) to write stress, or for that matter, phonemic transcriptions (everything was written phonetically, although it was definitely more likely phonemic).

[Travis B.]

Viktor, unlike dictionaries published in the US using Webster's respelling, the IPA stress mark goes before the syllable it acts on, not after. "Viktor" [ˈvɪk.tɚ], "disable" [dɪ.ˈseɪbɫ̩], or [dɪs.ˈeɪbɫ̩] if you prefer. I'm actually quite surprised that after all these years you're not aware of this...

They never required me in my French phonetics class (where I studied most the IPA) to write stress, or for that matter, phonemic transcriptions (everything was written phonetically, although it was definitely more likely phonemic).

And that is because French lacks stress, for all intents and purposes...

(Whereas stress is very, very important phonologically in English.)

[Viktor77]

And that is because French lacks stress, for all intents and purposes...

(Whereas stress is very, very important phonologically in English.)

So in this same class neither the professor nor the manual used phonemic transcription. Now surely we were writing standard Parisian French, which would be written phonemically. Why then did we write everything phonetically? See, that's why I never knew much about phonemic transcription, because I have always just used phonetic transcription for everything.

[Travis B.]

And that is because French lacks stress, for all intents and purposes...

(Whereas stress is very, very important phonologically in English.)

So in this same class neither the professor nor the manual used phonemic transcription. Now surely we were writing standard Parisian French, which would be written phonemically. Why then did we write everything phonetically? See, that's why I never knew much about phonemic transcription, because I have always just used phonetic transcription for everything.

Remember that your class was a phonetics course and not a phonology course; there is a difference between the two.

[Viktor77]

And that is because French lacks stress, for all intents and purposes...

(Whereas stress is very, very important phonologically in English.)

So in this same class neither the professor nor the manual used phonemic transcription. Now surely we were writing standard Parisian French, which would be written phonemically. Why then did we write everything phonetically? See, that's why I never knew much about phonemic transcription, because I have always just used phonetic transcription for everything.

Remember that your class was a phonetics course and not a phonology course; there is a difference between the two.

That scares me because I just wrote a thesis on phonics and I made no reference to such a distinction. I used phonology to refer to the inventory of the language's phonemes, and phonetics everywhere I didn't want to make reference to the entire phonology and all its parts (stress, intonation, phonemes, etc).

[Travis B.]

Remember that your class was a phonetics course and not a phonology course; there is a difference between the two.

That scares me because I just wrote a thesis on phonics and I made no reference to such a distinction. I used phonology to refer to the inventory of the language's phonemes, and phonetics everywhere I didn't want to make reference to the entire phonology and all its parts (stress, intonation, phonemes, etc).

Phonetics focuses on the details of how phones are physically articulated, transmitted, and perceived.

Phonology focuses on how the high-level phonemic components (both segmental and suprasegmental) of a language are structured, are processed into phones that are realized, and act to encode meaning.

At one time these were not well-distinguished, but since the advent of the phoneme these have become much more distinct.

[Dewrad]

Viktor: that you hope to be entrusted with the education of American youth terrifies me for the future of your country. (It does nothing to assuage my suspicions of your university being little more than a diploma mill.)

On-topic, here in Dorset we have a few, mainly due to syncope or reduction not being reflected in the orthography.

Gillingham /ˈɡɪlnəm/
Beaminster /ˈbɛmstər/
Edmondsham /ˈɛmǝnʃǝm/

On the other hand, Chideock /ˈtʃɪdək/ is just odd (it's also of Celtic etymology, from a Common-Brythonic *cę̄dǫc "forested").

[Viktor77]

Viktor: that you hope to be entrusted with the education of American youth terrifies me for the future of your country. (It does nothing to assuage my suspicions of your university being little more than a diploma mill.)

I'm not going to defend my university because that'll do nothing to change your mind but I worked with a professional in the field and she saw nothing wrong with my thesis so I'm probably freaking out about nothing. Seriously, I could show you it, but you probably wouldn't want to bother to read 30 pages, and nor would I ever expect you to.

[Viktor77]

Figure this one out, it's a name but nonetheless:

Beilein-/"bi.laIn/.

[Bristel]

I dispute Bristel's version of "Poulsbo" - the stressed vowel should be /ʌ/. That syllable rhymes with "hull", not "hall".

Kalaloch is my personal favorite - "clay lock", basically.

Ah, yeah, I think I mistyped it, I rearranged my IPA keyboard the other day. I agree with that pronunciation.

And Sequim is probably my favorite, it sounds so silly.

[Nortaneous]

Huh, when I lived in Annapolis, I never considered the pronunciation of Anne Arundel (or Bowie, for that matter) weird.

Exactly.

I noticed you skipped the most obvious one for Maryland: Baltimore. "Baw(l)mer" is the usual humourous respelling, but my father's family always pronounced it in three syllables, i.e. /'bɔl.ə.mər/. But I've had other natives of the city insist that there should be no /l/ at all.

I don't pronounce it that way and I don't know anyone (even people from Baltimore!) who pronounce it that way. "Bawlmer" is A Thing, but it's A Thing the way "Murrca" is A Thing. Nobody actually says it. (Although in the latter case, I come close.)

Also, there's the name of the state itself. My dad said he was hella amused the first time he flew back home from Canada and overheard all the Canucks on board talking about how they would soon be in "Mary Land". It sounded to him like some sort of Catholic theme park.

everyone knows it's supposed to be [me˞.ɫ̩nd]~

[linguoboy]

everyone knows it's supposed to be [me˞.ɫ̩nd]~

I've since this humourously respelled "Merlin" (which I suspect is once again A Thing) but the way my Dad says it it sounds like it should really be "Marilyn".

[finlay]

(4 years and 364 days, heh)

pssst, this is April, not March.

[Travis B.]

everyone knows it's supposed to be [me˞.ɫ̩nd]~

I've since this humourously respelled "Merlin" (which I suspect is once again A Thing) but the way my Dad says it it sounds like it should really be "Marilyn".

I am obviously not from Maryland, but to me the pronunciation of Maryland is entirely regular (well at least if one can accept y representing standard /ɪ/, analogous to my /ə/ in unstressed syllables), and is almost identical to that of Marilyn except with a /d/ added.

[clawgrip]

I noticed you skipped the most obvious one for Maryland: Baltimore. "Baw(l)mer" is the usual humourous respelling, but my father's family always pronounced it in three syllables, i.e. /'bɔl.ə.mər/. But I've had other natives of the city insist that there should be no /l/ at all.

I used to think this pronunciation was as widely known as, say, /ˈnɔrlənz/ for New Orleans, but I generally find that if I give "Baltimore" the native pronunciation, I have to follow up immediately with what (to my ears) is a strained overpronunciation. (I used to get snotty about this and say, "It's the one in Maryland, not the one in Ireland, so there's not 't' in it.") I guess "Bawlmer" is actually in the same category as "Fluffya" for "Philadelphia"--a pronunciation only really familiar to locals.

Also, there's the name of the state itself. My dad said he was hella amused the first time he flew back home from Canada and overheard all the Canucks on board talking about how they would soon be in "Mary Land". It sounded to him like some sort of Catholic theme park.

Similar to this, Toronto is typically pronounced without the final t, and often without the first o as well "T(o)ronno." But I don't think anyone actually considers the t to be silent by nature, just dropped, so no one really gets snotty about people who do pronounce the t, beyond the fact that it does sound overpronounced and non-local.

[Salmoneus]

I noticed you skipped the most obvious one for Maryland: Baltimore. "Baw(l)mer" is the usual humourous respelling, but my father's family always pronounced it in three syllables, i.e. /'bɔl.ə.mər/. But I've had other natives of the city insist that there should be no /l/ at all.

I used to think this pronunciation was as widely known as, say, /ˈnɔrlənz/ for New Orleans, but I generally find that if I give "Baltimore" the native pronunciation, I have to follow up immediately with what (to my ears) is a strained overpronunciation. (I used to get snotty about this and say, "It's the one in Maryland, not the one in Ireland, so there's not 't' in it.") I guess "Bawlmer" is actually in the same category as "Fluffya" for "Philadelphia"--a pronunciation only really familiar to locals.

Also, there's the name of the state itself. My dad said he was hella amused the first time he flew back home from Canada and overheard all the Canucks on board talking about how they would soon be in "Mary Land". It sounded to him like some sort of Catholic theme park.

Similar to this, Toronto is typically pronounced without the final t, and often without the first o as well "T(o)ronno." But I don't think anyone actually considers the t to be silent by nature, just dropped, so no one really gets snotty about people who do pronounce the t, beyond the fact that it does sound overpronounced and non-local.

Do they drop the T, or do they just flap it after the nasal? Mind you, apparently flapped T after nasals can often be dropped. I.e. I suspect this may be a dialect feature rather than a place name feature.

[Nortaneous]

everyone knows it's supposed to be [me˞.ɫ̩nd]~

I've since this humourously respelled "Merlin" (which I suspect is once again A Thing)

I doubt it's A Thing. I come close, but I might have just not gotten the memo.

[clawgrip]

It's dropped, not even flapped. As for it being a dialect thing, I'm not convinced it is entirely, but there might be something to do with it. I don't think Southern Ontario is particularly known for t-dropping in this way. I feel uncomfortable dropping the t in words like "memento" and "pinto." I also don't tend to drop t from "into". Pretty sure people generally leave the t in "McGuinty" as well, though I can imagine someone dropping it. "Wanna" and "gonna" are typical, but I think those are special cases. I feel it is fairly, even if perhaps not entirely, particular to the city name. Nevertheless, on news and whenever people are trying to be clear, they will often put it back in, so it seems like people consider the t-less version to be a kind of informal spoken thing.

While we're on the subject of Toronto, there is a large district of the city, called Etobicoke. The "ke" is always entirely silent.