JounaPyysalo wrote:hwhatting wrote:JounaPyysalo wrote:I had the most ancient IE languages in my mind, of course, an insignificant residue of analogy (or irregularity in general) appearing there.
Also, the "analogy" in the later stages of the languages is usually simply a series of successive losses of bases, the functions of which are taken over by the remaining (ever lessening) bases of the languages...
There is no good reason to assume that PIE worked fundamentally in a different way from the later attested languages. And analogy doesn't happen just due to a "lessening number of bases" (by which I assume you mean stem / inflection types or something like that?); it's just that less productive or obscure paradigms are influenced by more salient and productive paradigms. This is no different in PIE than in other languages. It is well known, e.g., that root verbs, root nouns, and heteroclitic nouns are an older and less productive layer than, say, thematic nouns and verbs (so PIE had differences between more and less productive inflection classes, which is sufficient forr analogy to arise), that there were two different ways of inflecting i- and u-stems (one "consonantal" with e.g. Gen. sg. *-yos, and one "vocalic" with Gen. sg. *-eys) and one reason why the relationship between stress and ablaut is so complicated is the fact that different patterns influenced each by analogy already in PIE.
What your System produces are "transponates", back-projections of attested forms into PIE, but you seem not to care much on how they fit into the morphological structures and ablaut patterns that have been reconstructed - if the outcome is that *es- had present tense plural forms *in *es-, *s-, and *os-, despite the observation that, for other athematic verbs the pattern is to have only zero grade in the plural, you seem to just shrug that off. So you elevate your "two witnesses" rule above considerations of the morphological system of PIE. That is your choice, but it's not the only choice available.
A couple of points here:
1. Reconstructions, when correctly made on the basis of the comparative method are back-projections i.e. re+constructions: What once existed is re-created on the basis of comparison. The reason for that is, of course, the fundamental fact that the reconstruction of Proto-Indo-European is a comparative business par excellence, only the comparison of the languages leading to the true protolanguage as it once was. The "two witnesses" rule actually dates back to Fick's rule, but it was already used before that by Rask and Bopp already, who spoke of the systematic correspondences between the letters (i.e. phonemes) of the languages.
2. PIE had numerous paradigms, thematic and athematic and it should not be taken warranted that these were inherited as such (a common underlying deep-level assumption with no counterpart in reality). It can be easily seen on the basis of Hittite that the "athematic" verbs with singular in *e took a plural in *o. Thus not only es·zi : asanzi but ses·zi : sas·anzi; Nothing in the data proves or falsifies the idea that the Hittite paradigms such as these are inherited or not. It is equally possible that the Hittite paradigm is suppletive, consisting of stems originally belonging to two paradigms. What matters is that it is absolutely certain that the Hitt. as·anzi [3pl] does certainly not represent a zero grade, because the stem Hitt. as- = CLu. as- = OPr. as- = Northumbr. ar·on [3pl] all imply PIE *os-. Indo-European linguistics is an empirical science that derives its true (verified) propositions directly from the data, not from erroneous a priori statements such as "the observation that, for other athematic verbs the pattern is to have only zero grade in the plural". Clearly that sort of pattern is incorrect, because the stem PIE *os- (Hitt. as- = CLu. as- = OPr. as- = Northumbr. ar·on [3pl]) could take both singular and plural endings in PIE.
3. (I am still to write a bundle of articles, so my apologies for the delayed articles – which may continue in the future as well. However, I am eager to return into the discussion whenever with a couple of extra minutes to comment)
You keep citing Northumbrian
aron (= Mercian
earun). The verb this form comes from is a preterite-present as shown by its 2sg Merc.
earþ, North.
arþ, and the preterite-presents as a class descend from the PIE perfect, which is well-known to have had an o-grade alternant. So this form proves nothing. The normal 3pl of "to be", however, was
sind(on), which has an irrefutable zero-grade. I am sorry that you don't want to hear this, but there can be no doubt that the Hittite plural stem
as- must reflect the zero-grade somehow.
JounaPyysalo wrote:I already wrote this with more length in the response to hwhatting (directly above) so
1. I simply ask here you the essential question: What makes you believe that the classes of verbs (or paradigms in general) were directly inherited, instead of being, say, recomposed?
2. Ctrl+F √kɑheuuɑh- in PIE Lexicon full data page. There you encounter OEng. heōw-, a long grade preterite in *ē with the length (secondarily shortened by Osthoff's Law) confirmed original by its identity with TochB. śauw-. The comparative method does not claim that this or that is analogy or irregular on a priori basis, but attempts to identify Indo-European cognates in order to determine at least those formations that are confirmed genuine by means of "two witnesses" at least (in this case PIE *kɑhēuu̯ɑh- is original since it yields both TochB. śauw- = OEng. heōw- regularly.
3. Also for you – and others – please accept my apologies for my delayed replies: I am with a "hopeless" bundle of articles and can afford very little time for the moment, but will response and continue the discussion when able to do that.
For starters, is it not you claiming direct inheritence, and I claiming later restructuring?
A survey of my reference material turned up one Old English verb with a preterite even remotely approaching the one you gave,
hēawan 'strike; chop', with a preterite
hēow. However, no Tocharian
śauw- turned up when I looked through IE verbs from the root. Please cite words properly in the future. How am I supposed to reply to you when I don't even know what you're talking about?