The Innovative Usage Thread

[Vijay]

There's also the Netherlands, the United ________, the Bahamas, the _________ Republic, and the Federated States of Micronesia, as well as The Hague.

[jal]

"Eurovision" is a name. Names don't get articles. (...) [also: individual mountains in the alps when the word 'Mont' or 'Monte' is not present. So "Scafell", "Everest", "Mont Blanc", "Kilimanjaro", but "the Matterhorn", "the Eiger", "the Dom", "the Ailefroide", etc.]

Interesting, thanks. Something to remember. In Dutch, names of rivers and mountains or mountain ranges always get an article, so I wouldn't have blinked twice using "the Mont Blanc" or "the Kilimanjaro".

There's also the Netherlands (...) as well as The Hague.

But these are translations/borrowings from Dutch, that has an article there as well. "the Netherlands" is on par with "the States", "the Hague" with "the City" (i.e. London).


JAL

[KathTheDragon]

The point is that the general rule is that names don't take articles. Those that do are exceptions, most of which can be subsumed into a few general categories that turn out to be justified.

[Porphyrogenitos]

This is perhaps less of an innovative usage than an aberrant usage, since I'm the only (??) instance, but I've got this to confess - my entire life I've pronounced "thanks" with [ð], and only found out today that it's supposed to be pronounced with [θ]. Has anyone else ever observed this phenomenon? I looked it up and there were a couple of threads on the linguistics Stack Exchange where people were talking about noticing this same pronunciation among family members...

[jmcd]

If other people are talking about it, it's not just you.

[Yng]

"Eurovision" is a name. Names don't get articles. [with the possible exception of one or two countries, but that's a confusing area - is it Gambia, the Gambia, or The Gambia? Technically, the legal situation is that the second is preferred, but I think that's the least likely to actually be found these days; and even there you could argue that it's an abbreviation for "(The Islamic Republic of) the Gambia", i.e. the republic on the Gambia river.]

[also with the exception, as that demonstrates, of names of geographical entities. In most cases, this occurs when there is an elided common noun: "the Gobi (Desert)", "the Atlantic (Ocean)", "the Stelvio (Pass)"; in the case of rivers in Europe, and a few of historical significance, the expanded form may have inversion: "the (River) Thames", "the (River) Danube"; but "the Mississippi (River)", "the Yangtze (River)"; the Nile is an ambiguous case, as it's normally "the (River) Nile" in common speech, but you sometimes see "the Nile (River)" in more technical contexts. Another exception is mountain ranges suffixed with -s, even when there's no implicit common noun: the Alps, the Himalayas, the Andes, the Cairngorms, the Pennines. [never "the Alps Mountains"].

[also: individual mountains in the alps when the word 'Mont' or 'Monte' is not present. So "Scafell", "Everest", "Mont Blanc", "Kilimanjaro", but "the Matterhorn", "the Eiger", "the Dom", "the Ailefroide", etc.]

i think 'the Eurovision' is fine, if faintly folksy-sounding

[Salmoneus]

There's also the Netherlands, the United ________, the Bahamas, the _________ Republic, and the Federated States of Micronesia, as well as The Hague.

I'll expand my 'mountain ranges with -s' to 'geographical collections in the plural', to include the Netherlands and the Bahamas (and island chains like the Antilles, the Galapagos, etc). Actually, many names in the plural take the article, it's just that plural names are rare - and they DON'T ~(usually?) take the article when they're corporations (Lehman Brothers, not *the Lehman Brothers).

Note also that the countries are The Netherlands and The Bahamas - the "article" is actually part of the name. The geographical area of the last, however, is the Bahamas, with a genuine article.

Regarding country names, they don't count, because they're descriptions rather than names. "The United States of America" is a description, with an article; "America" is a name, without one; likewise "the Federal Republic of Germany", "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia", and "the Italian Republic" are descriptions, whereas "Germany", "Macedonia", and "Italy", without articles, are names.


The Hague is an unusual case, because the "article" is actually part of the name: it's not the Hague, it's The Hague. Consequently Dutch people, in my experience, when speaking English refer to the city either as The Hague or as Den Haag, never as "the Haag" - the name isn't "Haag" or "Hague", with an attendent article (in either language), but Den Haag/The Hague.

[Salmoneus]

Interesting, thanks. Something to remember. In Dutch, names of rivers and mountains or mountain ranges always get an article, so I wouldn't have blinked twice using "the Mont Blanc" or "the Kilimanjaro".

We also occasionally use articles for some mountains with transparant English names, where the name is really thought of more as a description: the Old Man of Coniston, for instance, has no real name other than that description (though it's sometimes called Coniston Old Man). But that's rare.

[finlay]

It doesn't bother me (see 24th minute mark).

wait are you frankie boyle?

[Vijay]

Note also that the countries are The Netherlands and The Bahamas - the "article" is actually part of the name. The geographical area of the last, however, is the Bahamas, with a genuine article.

Isn't that also true of "the Netherlands"?

The Netherlands (Listeni/ˈnɛðərləndz/; Dutch: Nederland [ˈneːdərˌlɑnt] ( listen)) is the main constituent country (Dutch: land) of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. It is a small, densely populated country located in Western Europe with three island territories in the Caribbean.[nb 1] The European part of the Netherlands

[jal]

The Netherlands (Listeni/ˈnɛðərləndz/; Dutch: Nederland [ˈneːdərˌlɑnt] ( listen)) is the main constituent country (Dutch: land) of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. It is a small, densely populated country located in Western Europe with three island territories in the Caribbean.[nb 1] The European part of the Netherlands

That would be the Wikipedia fallacy? :)

EDIT: Note that (the?) Merriam Webster seems to agree.

JAL

[Salmoneus]

To me, "Netherlands" as a name is not unheard of, but rare. And "the Netherlands" as an area or political entity distinct from the country known as The Netherlands is archaic. It may be, however, that both The Netherlands and The Bahamas may be referred to in writing as "the Netherlands" and "the Bahamas" - spelling, particularly legally-defined spelling, doesn't always match semantics.

Note, however, that the wikipedia article says "The Netherlands is...", not, as would be expected if this were really a description of the king "the Xs", "The Netherlands are..."; likewise, (T/t)he Bahamas is a country, but the Bahamas are series of islands.

[Vijay]

That would be the Wikipedia fallacy?

True, Wikipedia is not necessarily the best source for this.

EDIT: Note that (the?) Merriam Webster seems to agree.

Just "Merriam-Webster" (not 'the Merriam-Webster')

[Travis B.]

To me, "Netherlands" as a name is not unheard of, but rare. And "the Netherlands" as an area or political entity distinct from the country known as The Netherlands is archaic. It may be, however, that both The Netherlands and The Bahamas may be referred to in writing as "the Netherlands" and "the Bahamas" - spelling, particularly legally-defined spelling, doesn't always match semantics.

Note, however, that the wikipedia article says "The Netherlands is...", not, as would be expected if this were really a description of the king "the Xs", "The Netherlands are..."; likewise, (T/t)he Bahamas is a country, but the Bahamas are series of islands.

I am not used to people capitalizing the the in "the Netherlands" or "the Bahamas" unless it is at the start of a sentence.

[jmcd]

It doesn't bother me (see 24th minute mark).

wait are you frankie boyle?

No, I'm pointing out an example of its usage that I heard the other day. Upon hearing it, it didn't strike me as odd but it did remind me of this discussion.

[Vijay]

I am not used to people capitalizing the the in "the Netherlands" or "the Bahamas" unless it is at the start of a sentence.

Me neither. And maybe lists or something like that. I guess Sal's talking about a usage neither of us is familiar with.

[hwhatting]

On "the Eurovision" - in German, events normally take the definite article (it's "die Eurovision"). Maybe Swedish does the same and it's just inference from Swedish?

[jal]

Maybe Swedish does the same and it's just inference from Swedish?

No and maybe yes. Swedish, like other Scandinavian languages, has a postponed definite article enclitic (-en/-n and -et). A quick check on the webpages of various Swedish news outlets confirms that they write "Eurovision" or "Eurovision Song Contest", without an extra article. However, it might be that the final -n of Eurovision is felt to be a definite article (any Swedes here that could confirm/deny this?). That said, I would presume that Petra and Måns wouldn't say anything unscripted, and that their scripts have been throrughly checked by native speakers (unlike some of the information provided, as detailed by Viktor). The official Eurovision website however never mentions "the Eurovision", so for now it stays a mystery....


JAL

[gach]

A quick check on the webpages of various Swedish news outlets confirms that they write "Eurovision" or "Eurovision Song Contest", without an extra article.

At least "Eurovision Song Contest" is a direct English quote and only tells us that Swedish articles don't attach to English names. "Eurovision" on its own is trickier since it's not clear from the writing only if it's intended as a Swedish or an English word. On the Finnish side of the gulf you can see a lot of "Eurovisionen" (= [ɛuruvi'ʃu:nɛn]) with the definite article -en being used, such as in "Därför klarade sig inte Norden i Eurovisionen i år".

[Travis B.]

About "Eurovision Song Contest", I am a native English-speaker and would say "the Eurovision song contest" (as the is being applied to song contest).

[KathTheDragon]

Oh, it's fine when it has "song contest" after, but not bare "Eurovision".

[Vijay]

My brother is here for a visit. Earlier this evening, my mom and I were waiting around at the airport to pick him up. Soon after we arrived there, it started raining, and my mom noted that we were lucky it wasn't raining when we were walking into the airport from the parking lot. However, the way she phrased it was "we got lucked out" rather than "we lucked out," perhaps on analogy with phrases like we got locked out.

[KathTheDragon]

That could also be a conflation with "we got lucky"

[jal]

"we lucked out,"

That means "we were lucky"? I would associate that with "out of luck" instead (cf. e.g. "sold out" conveying negative outcome)! Weird language...


JAL

[Vijay]

Apparently, in Britain, it does have the meaning you were thinking of, but in the US, yes, it means to be extremely lucky. I guess for us, it's like to be so lucky that you couldn't be any luckier and have thus run out of luck to have (i.e. exhausted your supply of luck)?