Non-obvious placename pronunciations

[linguoboy]

In the US, as opposed to the UK, the chief difficulty is determining the degree of anglicisation and/or spelling pronunciation being applied to names of foreign origin. For instance, final s is generally silent in Iowa and Missouri (e.g. Des Moines, Des Peres) but sounded in Illinois (Des Plaines). Missourians (at least in the St Louis area, with its heavy leavening of Germans) also tend to map German umlauted vowels to their unrounded counterparts rather than pronouncing them according to English conventions. So the first element of Spoede Road in St Louis County rhymes with "lady" not "toed". In Chicago, not so much, thus the common pronunciation of Goethe as /ˈgoːθiː/.

How do they say "Gratiot" in Michigan, Viktor? Down in St Louis, it's /ˈgræʧɨt/.

[Viktor77]

In the US, as opposed to the UK, the chief difficulty is determining the degree of anglicisation and/or spelling pronunciation being applied to names of foreign origin. For instance, final s is generally silent in Iowa and Missouri (e.g. Des Moines, Des Peres) but sounded in Illinois (Des Plaines). Missourians (at least in the St Louis area, with its heavy leavening of Germans) also tend to map German umlauted vowels to their unrounded counterparts rather than pronouncing them according to English conventions. So the first element of Spoede Road in St Louis County rhymes with "lady" not "toed". In Chicago, not so much, thus the common pronunciation of Goethe as /ˈgoːθiː/.

How do they say "Gratiot" in Michigan, Viktor? Down in St Louis, it's /ˈgræʧɨt/.

Basically the same way. Your [tS] is weird. We have a street here named that.

['gre@.SIt]

[Imralu]

I'm in my phone now, so I'll put the pronunciation in later. In the meantime, you're welcome to have a crack at it.

Suburbs in Brisbane:
Coorparoo /ˌkuːpəˈruː/ (not /ˌkɔːpəˈruː/ as youʲd expect from the spelling)
Woolloongabba /ˌwʊlənˈgæbə/ (usually realised with [ŋ] but with [n] in careful pronunciation)
Pinkenba /ˈpɪŋkənˌbɑː/
Meeandah /ˈmiːənˌdɑː/
Wooloowin /ˈwʊləwən/ (I would expect /ˈwʊləwɪn/ from schwa-schwi distinguishers)
Geebung /ˈdʒiːbʌŋ/
Capalaba /kəˈpæləˌbɑː/ (not /ˌkæpəˈlɑːbə/ as my parents thought, moving from Sydney with all its Italian and Greek place names ... a lot of Aboriginal place names around here end with a secondarily stressed /ˌbɑː/)
Taigum /ˈteɪgəm/ or /ˈtaɪgəm/
Deagon /ˈdiːgən/ (not /ˈdiːəgən/ or /diːˈeɪgɒn/, which I have heard from non-locals)
Auchenflower /ˈɔːkənˌflaʊə/ (or with a German friend of mine who lived there, we called it [ˈaʊxənˈfloːvɐ])
Toowong /təˈwɒŋ/ (outsiders say /ˈtuːwɔŋ/, which, for some reason, reminds me a bit of old people saying /ˈməʊˌdem/ for "modem" instead of /ˈməʊdəm/)
Moorooka /məˈruːkə/
Yeronga /jɪəˈrɒŋgə/ or /jəˈrɒŋgə/
Yerongpilly /jɪəˌrɒŋˈpɪli/ or /jəˌrɒŋˈpɪli/
Indooroopilly /ˌɪndəruːˈpɪli/ (often called Indro by locals /ˈɪndrəʊ/)
Tingalpa /tɪŋˈgælpə/
Murarrie /ˌmʌrəˈriː/
Boondall /ˈbuːndəl/
Toombul /ˈtuːmbəl/


Near Brisbane:
Nerang /nəˈræŋ/
Nerangba /nəˈræŋˌbɑː/
Worongary /wəˈrɒŋgəri/
Humpybong /ˈhʌmpiˌbɒŋ/ (exactly what it looks like, included because it's funny)
Burpengary /ˈbɜːpənˌgæri/ (sounds like "Burpin' Gary")
Murwillumbah /məˈwɪləmˌbɑː/
Toowoomba /təˈwʊmbə/
Gympie /ˈgɪmpi/ (or as a joke, /ˈdʒɪmˌpaɪ/)
Coolangatta /ˌkuːlənˈgætə/

Elsewhere:
Biloela /ˈbɪləˌwiːlə/ (presumably earlier /ˈbɪləʊˈiːla/, or possibly I'm the only one who broke the <o> down into /əw/, which I've also done with "koala")
Goondiwindi /ˌgʌndəˈwɪndi/ (Yeah, /ʌ/ for <oo> ... blood, flood, Goondiwindi)
Cunnamulla /ˌkʌnəˈmʌlə/ (Typically followed by the word /kʌnt/)
Geelong /dʒəˈlɒŋ/
Wagga Wagga /ˈwɒgəˌwɒgə/
Oodnadatta /ˌuːdnəˈdætə/
Woolloomooloo /ˌwʊləməˈluː/
Wollongong /ˈwʊləŋˌgɒŋ/
Triabunna /ˌtraɪəˈbʌnə/
Albury-Wodonga /ˌɔːlbriwəˈdɒŋgə/
Ettamogah /ˌetəˈmuːgə/
Mackay /məˈkaɪ/ (apparently locals say /məˈkeɪ/).
Strahan /strɔːn/
Wangaratta /ˌwɒŋgəˈrætə/
Benaraby /bəˈnærəbi/

Oh, and it's been done before, but these ones are always mangled by foreigners looking at maps.
Brisbane /ˈbrɪzbən/ (not /ˈbrɪsˌbeɪn/ or /ˈbrɪzˌbeɪn/)
Canberra /ˈkæːnbrə/ (/n/ often changes to [m], very old people say /ˌkæːnˈberə/)
Melbourne /ˈmelbən/ (from rhotic speakers /ˈmelbərn/ is good, /ˈmelˌbɔ(ː)rn/ and /ˈmelˌbɜ(ː)rn/ are cringe-inducing.)
Adelaide /ˈædəˌleid/ (pretty straight-forward, I would have thought, but I did hear an American tourist call it /əˈdiːləˌdiː/ once, which sounds quite cute. Adeeladee)
Cairns /kæːnz/ ("cans" obviously originally /ˈkeənz/ but /eə/ [eː] is very similar to a bogan pronunciation of /æː/ so its been reassigned, and there are no words in most people's everyday vocabulary around here that have /eən/ in them - my parents think pronouncing "Cairns" as "cans" is a great tragedy, but it's much more widespread than the original pronunciation)
Mt Isa /ˌmaʊnt ˈaɪzə/

[Rui]

Well, my own great home state of Connecticut falls into this category, as the standard pronunciation is [kʰə.ˈnɛ.ɾɪ.kɪt̚] there. Around where I grew up, there's Greenwich and Darien ([ˈgɹɛ.nɪtʃ] and [ˌdeə̯.ɹi.ˈeə̯n] -- "Grennich" and "Dairy Ann". I myself have [ˌdæ.ɹi.ˈeə̯n], but the key to pronouncing it like a local is the final syllable). There's a bunch of fun neighborhoods, as well.

New York State has a bunch as well: Poughkeepsie [pʰə.ˈkʰɪp.si] is the big city that jumps out in my mind, but there's a lot of towns and stuff that have a lot of Iroquois etymologies that seem weird to non-natives (just look at the county names of the counties making up western New York). Also, near my university's city of Rochester is a town called Chili, pronounced [ˈtʃaɪ.laɪ], as well as a city outside of Albany called Renssalaer [ˈɹɛn.sə.liɹ] (yeah, lots of Dutch influence in the capital region, and even as far down as NYC itself, with neighborhoods such as Spuyten Duyvil, where the <uy>s are pronounced [aɪ])

[Pinetree]

London, of course, is even worse. I once worked in Marylebone, which famously there ISN'T a correct pronunciation of. Instead, people embarrassedly settle into one of m{r@l@b@n, "m{ril@boUn, or (my own version) "mal@b@n, and react with appropriate snobbery and/or embarrassment when confronted with alternative pronunciations, depending on the perceived superior or inferior class or localness of the interlocutor. I mean it's only been there a few hundred years in the middle of what was at the time the biggest city on earth, no reason why we should actually have agreed what to call the place we live, is there?

I'd always heard that it was pronounced [ˈmaː.bən].

[finlay]

There are a many place names in Japan that are difficult or impossible to read if you don't know the pronunciation already. Here are just a few near me:

立川 is pronounced both Tachikawa and Tatekawa, depending on which place you are referring to.
酒々井 looks like it should be Shushusei, Shushui, Sakezakei, or something weird like that, but it is actually Shisui.
三ヶ月 looks like Sankagetsu but is actually Migose.
不忍 looks like it should be Funin but it is Shinobazu.
東雲 looks like it should be Tō'un, Higashigumo or Azumagumo, but it is actually Shinonome.
神戸 is the city of Kōbe, which is famous enough that no one mispronounces it, but it looks like it should be pronounced Jinko or Kamito. 神戸 also appears in one or two other place names as Kanbe.

I used to live in Kami Shakujii in western Tokyo, which is 上石神井. Perhaps kami is an unusual pronunciation of 上, but it's quite common in place names, but Shakujii is totally out there... it looks like ishigamii or something. 神 gets a one off pronunciation as 'ji' - it's normally jin.

There's also things like 国立 - kunitachi as a place name and kokuritsu as a descriptor. Or 日本橋, apparently nihonbashi in tokyo and nipponbashi in osaka - or some simple switches of on and kun readings. It took me ages to connect Hachimangu 八幡宮 and Yahatabashi 八幡橋, both found in many places, including in Iogi quite near my old house - the connection is obvious when written in kanji but not so much when speaking.

Also i think Edinburgh qualifies.

[clawgrip]

Those Australian place names are great.

As for Shakujii, I almost put it on that list. 石 has two on readings, seki and shaku (in order of frequency). As you said, 神 can of course also be read jin, so I guess the /n/ got dropped.

Shakujii is a bit unusual because it's a juubako-yomi, meaning the first characters take on-yomi and the last takes kun-yomi, making it a little more confusing, since by default you expect only on readings or kun readings in words, especially names.

If 上 or 下 appear at the beginning of a place name, they are almost always going to be read as kami and shimo, 上野 Ueno of course being a prominent exception.

The 八幡宮/八幡橋 example is great. To make things worse, 八幡 can also be pronounced Yawata (There is a Yawata station in Kita-Kyushu).

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

The 八幡宮/八幡橋 example is great. To make things worse, 八幡 can also be pronounced Yawata (There is a Yawata station in Kita-Kyushu).

the /w/ in /jawata/ is the natural evolution of /h/ between vowels.

Sometimes, you get the opposite. There is place in Kurobe written 明日. We all expect something like /asita/ or /asu/ or, at worst, /mjouZitu/ or /meinitSi/. But no, it's actually a freaking /akebi/, destroying all expectations and laughing at you. Even most locals get lost on that one. What the hell with /akebi/. :p

Aaaaaaaaaaand I forgot the worst. Do you pronounce 町 as /tSou/ or /matSi/. Go, take a guess. 超複雑なんだけど！

[clawgrip]

The 八幡宮/八幡橋 example is great. To make things worse, 八幡 can also be pronounced Yawata (There is a Yawata station in Kita-Kyushu).

the /w/ in /jawata/ is the natural evolution of /h/ between vowels.

Yes, I know about this process. 原 is also susceptible to this (cf. 吉原 Yoshiwara). Can't think of any others like that that appear in place names though.

Aaaaaaaaaaand I forgot the worst. Do you pronounce 町 as /tSou/ or /matSi/. Go, take a guess. 超複雑なんだけど！

町 is probably the worst of them all because it is extremely common and yet its pronunciation is entirely dependent on whichever one the person who named it felt like using.

[ol bofosh]

I grew up in Lewes, which I've heard pronounced /ljuːz/ but it actually pronounced /ˈluːɨs/.

There's an area of Brighton called the Steine /stiːn/.

There are two Gillingham like /ˈɡɪlɪŋəm/ and one Gillingham like /ˈdʒɪlɪŋəm/ in England.

There's loads of strange things like that in SE England.

From Sussex:
Steyning /ˈstɛ.nɨŋ/
Offham /ˈɒ.fəm/

Kent:
Leigh /laɪ/
Brasted /ˈbreɪ.stɛd/
Shipbourne /ˈʃɪ.bən/
Wrotham /'ɹu:.təm/
Tonbridge /ˈtʌn.bɹɪdʒ/

That last one (where I lived once) was once spelled Tunbridge, but in the days before post codes it had to be changed to Tonbridge to distinguish it from Tunbridge Wells so the post would be sent to the right place. The pronunciation remained the same.

[Salmoneus]

I grew up in Lewes, which I've heard pronounced /ljuːz/ but it actually pronounced /ˈluːɨs/.

There's an area of Brighton called the Steine /stiːn/.

There are two Gillingham like /ˈɡɪlɪŋəm/ and one Gillingham like /ˈdʒɪlɪŋəm/ in England.

There's loads of strange things like that in SE England.

From Sussex:
Steyning /ˈstɛ.nɨŋ/
Offham /ˈɒ.fəm/

Kent:
Leigh /laɪ/
Brasted /ˈbreɪ.stɛd/
Shipbourne /ˈʃɪ.bən/
Wrotham /'ɹu:.təm/
Tonbridge /ˈtʌn.bɹɪdʒ/

That last one (where I lived once) was once spelled Tunbridge, but in the days before post codes it had to be changed to Tonbridge to distinguish it from Tunbridge Wells so the post would be sent to the right place. The pronunciation remained the same.

Oh, cool. Where abouts in Tonbridge?
And do you know how to pronounce 'Mereworth'? I've gathered that it's three syllables, but I'm not sure whether it's meant to be mEriw3T or mEr@w@T.

[ol bofosh]

Oh, cool. Where abouts in Tonbridge?

The south end, near West Kent College for four years before I moved to Spain.

And do you know how to pronounce 'Mereworth'? I've gathered that it's three syllables, but I'm not sure whether it's meant to be mEriw3T or mEr@w@T.

Not sure about that one. I would have said mEriw3T, but don't take my word for it.

[Gulliver]

Offham /ˈɒ.fəm/

Offham in East Sussex (near Lewes) or West Sussex (near Arundel /ˈæ.rən.ˌdʊl/)? Cos the one in East Sussex is definitely /ˈoʊ.fəm/.

[kodé]

Kind of a boring one, but here goes: I constantly hear non-Nevadans pronounce the name of the state [n@."vA.4@], while most of us native Nevadans pronounce it [n@.v{.4@]. I guess this falls into the whole "how much do you Anglicize it?" category, where natives use the Anglicized [{]-vowel, while furrners (i.e., non-Nevadans) try to retain the Spanish-like (to English ears, at least) [A].

[Travis B.]

Two examples I just thought of from here in Milwaukee is Burleigh Street and Cudahy (the name of a city, a last name, and part of the name of a company):

Burleigh: /ˈbərˌlae̯/ > [ˈb̥ʁ̩ˤːˌɯ̞ae̯]
Cudahy: /ˈkʌdəˌhe/ > [ˈkʰʌːɾəˌhe(ː)]

Apparently, the rule that ei is /ae̯/ or /əe̯/ got applied to a non-German name in the case of Burleigh...

[Xephyr]

Pierre (capital of SD) is pronounced /pir/, not /pi"jer/. Not sure how commonly this is known.

By the way, this thread has way too much unnecessary use of square brackets.

And I'm putting this in tinytext as insurance, because I just KNOW somebody will respond with "no, they're using it correctly for phonetic transcription"--- I am not saying that. I am saying that this thread is NOT a context in which PHONETIC transcription is called for. This thread is for saying that, e.g., "Leicester" is pronounced /"lɛstər/-- not for impressing your friends with how many preglottalized stops and pharyngealized resonants you can describe..

[Salmoneus]

Pierre (capital of SD) is pronounced /pir/, not /pi"jer/. Not sure how commonly this is known.

By the way, this thread has way too much unnecessary use of square brackets.

And I'm putting this in tinytext as insurance, because I just KNOW somebody will respond with "no, they're using it correctly for phonetic transcription"--- I am not saying that. I am saying that this thread is NOT a context in which PHONETIC transcription is called for. This thread is for saying that, e.g., "Leicester" is pronounced /"lɛstər/-- not for impressing your friends with how many preglottalized stops and pharyngealized resonants you can describe..

And in Travis' case, of unnecessary use of made-up symbol combinations. I could maybe have commented on the pronunciations he gives, if not for the fact that I haven't the slightest notion what diphthong he's trying to say he uses.



kodé: but if it were anglicised, with would be n@veId@. It's not spelled Nevadda!


bofoshnae: ha! May have been driven past your house many, many times, then.

[Drydic]

kodé: but if it were anglicised, with would be n@veId@. It's not spelled Nevadda!

Yes clearly your instinct as to what its anglicization would be is the only possible outcome ever. Get over yourself, Sal.

[finlay]

Aaaaaaaaaaand I forgot the worst. Do you pronounce 町 as /tSou/ or /matSi/. Go, take a guess. 超複雑なんだけど！

町 is probably the worst of them all because it is extremely common and yet its pronunciation is entirely dependent on whichever one the person who named it felt like using.

I was discussing this on facebook – my friend thinks they were used as shibboleths to identify outsiders. 町 also can just randomly flip, as I've seen many examples of people who say the name of their home neighbourhood with the opposite pronunciations to the official signs.

Trying to guess pronunciations is the worst though... I saw an address in Shinjuku that was 富久町 and I thought it was fu-ku-machi but it's actually tomi-hisa-cho.

[Salmoneus]

kodé: but if it were anglicised, with would be n@veId@. It's not spelled Nevadda!

Yes clearly your instinct as to what its anglicization would be is the only possible outcome ever. Get over yourself, Sal.

And as usual your pompous insistence on being as much of an arsehole to people as possible for no reason at all kicks in before you engage your brain...
Long and short vowels and how they're represented in spelling really isn't a fucking difficult concept. Not that you give a shit what the topic of conversation is, clearly.

[Bristel]

Place names in Washington State:
(many are local Salishan names)

Sequim: /skʷɪm/
Bothell: /bɒθəl/
Bingen: /bɪndʒən/
Chehalis: /ʃəˈheɪlɨs/
Chewelah: /tʃɨˈwiːlə/
Kalaloch: /ˈkleɪlɒk/
Mukilteo: /ˌmʌkəlˈtiː.oʊ/
Nespelem: /nɛsˈpiːləm/
Poulsbo: /pɑːlzboʊ/
Sedro-Woolley: /ˈsiːdroʊ ˈwʊli/
Skamokawa: /skəˈmɒkəweɪ/
Sekiu: /ˈsiːkjuː/
Semiahmoo: /sɛmiˈɑːmoʊ/
Steilacoom: /ˈstɪləkʌm/
Yakima: /ˈjækəmɑː/ or /ˈjækəmə/

[Radius Solis]

One I used to get consistently wrong is Paulina. To me, the stressed i really wants to be /iː/, not /ai/.

Reminds me of Tucson - a city where street names tend to be in Spanish - where Ina Road is /ˈainə/.

Tucson /ˈtusan/ is of course itself one of the more infamous non-obvious pronunciations in the country.

In my state, besides those mentioned previously, we also have:
Puyallup /pjuˈæləp/
Issaquah /ˈɪzəkwa/
I dispute Bristel's version of "Poulsbo" - the stressed vowel should be /ʌ/. That syllable rhymes with "hull", not "hall".

Kalaloch is my personal favorite - "clay lock", basically.

[kodé]

kodé: but if it were anglicised, with would be n@veId@. It's not spelled Nevadda!

I guess that would be one option, but there are plenty of English words where a vowel in front of a single consonant is pronounced short, and not just as a result of trisyllabic laxity. IIRC these words do tend to be of Latin or French origin, but this might even be a reason why this foreign-looking word is pronounced the way it is.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

The 八幡宮/八幡橋 example is great. To make things worse, 八幡 can also be pronounced Yawata (There is a Yawata station in Kita-Kyushu).

the /w/ in /jawata/ is the natural evolution of /h/ between vowels.

Yes, I know about this process. 原 is also susceptible to this (cf. 吉原 Yoshiwara). Can't think of any others like that that appear in place names though.

諏訪 is a funny example :p

[ol bofosh]

Offham /ˈɒ.fəm/

Offham in East Sussex (near Lewes) or West Sussex (near Arundel /ˈæ.rən.ˌdʊl/)? Cos the one in East Sussex is definitely /ˈoʊ.fəm/.

Really? In that case I have no idea. I just picked it from a list and recognised it. Never realised there were two of them. Well, it's even weirder than I thought (and my example wasn't that weird).



In Tonbridge there are two lakes called Haysden and Barden, which I thought of at first as /ˈheɪz.dən/ and /'bɑː.dən/, but locals corrected me: /ˈheɪz.dɛn/ and /'bɑː.dɛn/.