Personal pronouns genesis

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vec
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by vec »

Travis B. wrote:I think that is specific to you, actually.

Note that you is no longer plural in everyday speech in many English dialects today, which have innovated their own 2nd pl. pronouns to replace it outside of formal speech (even though they may still use you therefor after a dedicated 2nd pl. pronoun has been used).
In New York no one understood "you" to be plural. You always say "you guys".
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by KathTheDragon »

Richard W wrote:
hwhatting wrote:There's a similar thing happening with German man, and zompist mentioned a similar tendency for French on. I son't hink that it has progressed as far in German as you describe in Icelandic - it is mostly used to frame one's own experiences and judgments as something shared by the audience or by society as a whole.
One notices the same process in English.
Or 'You notice the same process in English'.

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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by Ser »

Uno,a 'one' in Spanish is also like that (though in dire contrast with its English counterpart, it's mostly used colloquially/informally). It's basically a 1st person singular pronoun, but it makes a generalization that could apply to anybody similar (in economic status, or of the same gender, etc.) in such situation.

A una de mujer joven siempre la andan viendo con interés los hombres.
'Y'know, women as young as I am get looked at with "some special interest" all the time by men.'
(More literally: "One as a young woman is always seen with interest by men".)

Los vendedores ambulantes esos siempre le quieren cobrar más a uno de extranjero.
'Y'know, that kind of informal street vendors always want to charge foreigners more.'
(More literally: "Such informal street vendors always want to charge one as a foreigner more".)

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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by Drydic »

Have you people never heard of impersonal pronouns?
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by Ser »

But they all have different impersonalities!

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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by Copperknickers »

Zju wrote:Do you know of any examples of words becoming personal pronouns? I'm talking about content words here, so no this/that/that yonder → I/you/he, though this would be interesting to hear as well, since such semantic change is not that straightforward.
I know that some (south)east Asian languages use nouns instead of pronouns out of politeness, but have any actual cases of pp genesis been recorded, with the former meaning completely bleached?
In Jamaican patois and derived dialects, the word 'man' is used as a kind of universal pronoun.

So 'man will find you sooner or later': 'someone will find you sooner or later', or 'they will find you sooner or later', or even 'I will find you sooner or later' depending on the context.

I presume this is derived from the fact that Jamaican patois is not very fond of plurals, so demonstratives are something like:

Singular dis/ dem
Plural dese ting/dem ting

or for people:

dis man/ dem man
dese man/ dem man

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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by R.Rusanov »

zompist wrote:Portuguese você and Spanish Usted both derive from 'your mercy'.

On increasingly replaces nous in colloquial French; it derives from homo 'man'.
How did hominem give both "on" and "homme"? I think it more likely a borrowing from Slavic, perhaps introduced to Parisian haute-couture by Anne of Kiev
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by 8Deer »

R.Rusanov wrote:
zompist wrote:Portuguese você and Spanish Usted both derive from 'your mercy'.

On increasingly replaces nous in colloquial French; it derives from homo 'man'.
How did hominem give both "on" and "homme"? I think it more likely a borrowing from Slavic, perhaps introduced to Parisian haute-couture by Anne of Kiev
"On" is from the Old French nominative form and "homme" is from the accusative.

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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by Hallow XIII »

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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by Nortaneous »

ah yes, it all makes sense now, the monks were *russian*
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by Legion »

Yeah, "on" is the regular reflex of "homo", while "homme" is the regular reflex of "hominem". Several French words have two reflex when the nominative reflex differs sufficiently from the accusative one due to stem alternation (generally third declencien nouns): pute/putain, copain/compagnon, sire/seigneur, pâtre/pasteur, moindre/mineur…

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Re: Personal pronouns genesis

Post by WeepingElf »

Copperknickers wrote:In Jamaican patois and derived dialects, the word 'man' is used as a kind of universal pronoun.

So 'man will find you sooner or later': 'someone will find you sooner or later', or 'they will find you sooner or later', or even 'I will find you sooner or later' depending on the context.
German man works that way, too: Man wird dich früher oder später finden.
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