In New York no one understood "you" to be plural. You always say "you guys".Travis B. wrote:I think that is specific to you, actually.
Note that you is no longer plural in everyday speech in many English dialects today, which have innovated their own 2nd pl. pronouns to replace it outside of formal speech (even though they may still use you therefor after a dedicated 2nd pl. pronoun has been used).
Personal pronouns genesis
Re: Personal pronouns genesis
vec
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis
Or 'You notice the same process in English'.Richard W wrote:One notices the same process in English.hwhatting wrote:There's a similar thing happening with German man, and zompist mentioned a similar tendency for French on. I son't hink that it has progressed as far in German as you describe in Icelandic - it is mostly used to frame one's own experiences and judgments as something shared by the audience or by society as a whole.
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis
Uno,a 'one' in Spanish is also like that (though in dire contrast with its English counterpart, it's mostly used colloquially/informally). It's basically a 1st person singular pronoun, but it makes a generalization that could apply to anybody similar (in economic status, or of the same gender, etc.) in such situation.
A una de mujer joven siempre la andan viendo con interés los hombres.
'Y'know, women as young as I am get looked at with "some special interest" all the time by men.'
(More literally: "One as a young woman is always seen with interest by men".)
Los vendedores ambulantes esos siempre le quieren cobrar más a uno de extranjero.
'Y'know, that kind of informal street vendors always want to charge foreigners more.'
(More literally: "Such informal street vendors always want to charge one as a foreigner more".)
A una de mujer joven siempre la andan viendo con interés los hombres.
'Y'know, women as young as I am get looked at with "some special interest" all the time by men.'
(More literally: "One as a young woman is always seen with interest by men".)
Los vendedores ambulantes esos siempre le quieren cobrar más a uno de extranjero.
'Y'know, that kind of informal street vendors always want to charge foreigners more.'
(More literally: "Such informal street vendors always want to charge one as a foreigner more".)
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis
Have you people never heard of impersonal pronouns?
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis
But they all have different impersonalities!
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis
In Jamaican patois and derived dialects, the word 'man' is used as a kind of universal pronoun.Zju wrote:Do you know of any examples of words becoming personal pronouns? I'm talking about content words here, so no this/that/that yonder → I/you/he, though this would be interesting to hear as well, since such semantic change is not that straightforward.
I know that some (south)east Asian languages use nouns instead of pronouns out of politeness, but have any actual cases of pp genesis been recorded, with the former meaning completely bleached?
So 'man will find you sooner or later': 'someone will find you sooner or later', or 'they will find you sooner or later', or even 'I will find you sooner or later' depending on the context.
I presume this is derived from the fact that Jamaican patois is not very fond of plurals, so demonstratives are something like:
Singular dis/ dem
Plural dese ting/dem ting
or for people:
dis man/ dem man
dese man/ dem man
Re: Personal pronouns genesis
How did hominem give both "on" and "homme"? I think it more likely a borrowing from Slavic, perhaps introduced to Parisian haute-couture by Anne of Kievzompist wrote:Portuguese você and Spanish Usted both derive from 'your mercy'.
On increasingly replaces nous in colloquial French; it derives from homo 'man'.
Slava, čĭstŭ, hrabrostĭ!
Re: Personal pronouns genesis
"On" is from the Old French nominative form and "homme" is from the accusative.R.Rusanov wrote:How did hominem give both "on" and "homme"? I think it more likely a borrowing from Slavic, perhaps introduced to Parisian haute-couture by Anne of Kievzompist wrote:Portuguese você and Spanish Usted both derive from 'your mercy'.
On increasingly replaces nous in colloquial French; it derives from homo 'man'.
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis
O Rusanov, why are you?
陳第 wrote:蓋時有古今,地有南北;字有更革,音有轉移,亦勢所必至。
Read all about my excellent conlangsR.Rusanov wrote:seks istiyorum
sex want-PRS-1sg
Basic Conlanging Advice
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis
ah yes, it all makes sense now, the monks were *russian*
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.
Re: Personal pronouns genesis
Yeah, "on" is the regular reflex of "homo", while "homme" is the regular reflex of "hominem". Several French words have two reflex when the nominative reflex differs sufficiently from the accusative one due to stem alternation (generally third declencien nouns): pute/putain, copain/compagnon, sire/seigneur, pâtre/pasteur, moindre/mineur…
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Re: Personal pronouns genesis
German man works that way, too: Man wird dich früher oder später finden.Copperknickers wrote:In Jamaican patois and derived dialects, the word 'man' is used as a kind of universal pronoun.
So 'man will find you sooner or later': 'someone will find you sooner or later', or 'they will find you sooner or later', or even 'I will find you sooner or later' depending on the context.
...brought to you by the Weeping Elf
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A
Tha cvastam émi cvastam santham amal phelsa. -- Friedrich Schiller
ESTAR-3SG:P human-OBJ only human-OBJ true-OBJ REL-LOC play-3SG:A