Who among you is within this isogloss?

[Drydic]

I took the money off the table
I nicked took the money off from my friend
I lived off of the money for a year
I lived off the land for a year
Get off my land!
We scored off their corner - what does this even mean?
He made his money offfrom/in insider trading
He chipped a corner off of the block of stone
He knocked the vase off the table
They make money off the suffering of the poor
The ball bounced off the wall

Hit or miss.

[linguoboy]

I took the money off the table

I could be overanalysing, but I think I prefer "off" when the meaning is metaphorical and "off of" when it's literal.

Otherwise my intuitions are roughly the same as Nessari's.

[Salmoneus]

I took the money off the table
I nicked took the money off from my friend
I lived off of the money for a year
I lived off the land for a year
Get off my land!
We scored off their corner - what does this even mean?
He made his money offfrom/in insider trading
He chipped a corner off of the block of stone
He knocked the vase off the table
They make money off the suffering of the poor
The ball bounced off the wall

Well I'm impressed with myself now. I had an intuition that some people might have 'I lived off of the money' but 'I lived off the land', even though I couldn't think why anybody would distinguish them.

In that context, where 'off' indicates 'with the use of', 'by means of', 'thanks to', 'by using', 'having as a source of resources' etc, are there any other verbs and/or nouns where you don't use 'off of', but just 'off'?
I'm wondering whether 'live off the land' has become a set phrase, and thus immune from the later addition of 'of', or whether there's actually some semantic difference i'm not spotting here (maybe exhaustive use vs non-exhaustive use?)

One other sentence: "I lived off honey and locusts for a year"?

Two other interesting things:
How come you make money off the suffering of the poor, but from insider trading? In both cases 'off' is denoting an origin or supply, and it's even the same verb. How about:
I made money off the suffering of the poor
I made my money off the suffering of the poor
I made money off slave labour
I made money off misery
I made money off the stupidity of others
I made money off murder
I made money off confidence fraud
I made money off finance
I made money off speculation
I made money off speculating on currencies
I made money off an idiot I manipulated
I made money off manipulating an idiot
I made money off the manipulation of an idiot

The other one is that you seem to have bare 'off' with physical meanings, except for chipping corners off things. So how about:
Sorry, we knocked the foot off your statue
We rubbed the paint off the wall
We tore the label off the blanket
We tore the wrapping off the parcel (amusing tangent: I'd normally say 'we tore the wrapping off the parcel', but I could say 'we tore the wrapping off of the parcel'... but I could also sometimes say 'we tore the wrapping off on the parcel', which is a whole nother issue to get into).


In the sentences where you have 'off of', is bare 'off' ungrammatical, or just not something you'd normally say?

Re: 'scored off their corner'. Well, the meaning I had in mind was that you'd be playing some sort of team ball game with a goal at each end (eg football, hockey) where there was a rule whereby if the opposition team knocked the ball behind their own goal line, your team got a free hit of the ball from a position on or near the corner between their goal line and the sidelines, and that in this situation you would concede a corner, they would take it, but something would go wrong for them, and you (pl) would as a result be able to score a goal yourself.
I'm assuming that a) your sports don't have corners and if they do you don't call them that, and b) you'd presumably say 'from' here anyway?

[It also means 'having allocated a corner of a sheet of something to 'them', we laid a straight-edged item on the sheet, its edge crossing from one side to a perpendicular side, with the two sides meeting at the allocated corner, and made a deep impression or incision into the sheet by running a sharp item along the straight edge', or possibly 'we made a note that their corner no longer needed to be kept in mind' or the like, but those meanings all use 'score off' as a phrasal verb]

I'm also intrigued by Nort's claim that he finds the 'off of' forms higher register than bare 'off' - because for me it's the other way around (I can often use 'off of' where you lot do, but it feels lower-register to me).

[Drydic]

I took the money off the table
I nicked took the money off from my friend
I lived off of the money for a year
I lived off the land for a year
Get off my land!
We scored off their corner - what does this even mean?
He made his money offfrom/in insider trading
He chipped a corner off of the block of stone
He knocked the vase off the table
They make money off the suffering of the poor
The ball bounced off the wall

Well I'm impressed with myself now. I had an intuition that some people might have 'I lived off of the money' but 'I lived off the land', even though I couldn't think why anybody would distinguish them.

In that context, where 'off' indicates 'with the use of', 'by means of', 'thanks to', 'by using', 'having as a source of resources' etc, are there any other verbs and/or nouns where you don't use 'off of', but just 'off'?
I'm wondering whether 'live off the land' has become a set phrase, and thus immune from the later addition of 'of', or whether there's actually some semantic difference i'm not spotting here (maybe exhaustive use vs non-exhaustive use?)

It's murky to me what the distinction, if any, is. I do think live off the land is a set phrase though.

One other sentence: "I lived off honey and locusts for a year"?

Off of.

Two other interesting things:
How come you make money off the suffering of the poor, but from insider trading? In both cases 'off' is denoting an origin or supply, and it's even the same verb.

The fuzzy logic I've got for that is the poor's suffering is more integral to them and thus personal than insider trading is to insider traders. This does admittedly sound weak, though.

I made money off the suffering of the poor - from sounds a little more natural here to me, possibly by increasing the agency of the actor.
I made my money off the suffering of the poor - from definitely sounds best here. I'm getting more convinced agency is a factor.
I made money off slave labour - obviously these are all somewhat constructed, but this one stands out more. I want to reword it as I profited from slave labor.
I made money off misery - perfectly fine.
I made money off the stupidity of others - If there were a combo of with and from, I'd use it here, but there isn't, so this is fine.
I made money off murder - from. Agency.
I made money off confidence fraud - from, if we're talking about a single instance. Otherwise in.
I made money off finance - In.
I made money off speculation - speculating, no preposition.
I made money off speculating on currencies - see above.
I made money off an idiot I manipulated - I'd probably reword it somewhat, I got money off an idiot I manipulated, though intriguingly the off stayed.
I made money off manipulating an idiot - fine, though not a wording I normally hear (see the slave labor comment above.)
I made money off the manipulation of an idiot from. No question now, agency is a factor.

The other one is that you seem to have bare 'off' with physical meanings, except for chipping corners off things. So how about:
Sorry, we knocked the foot off your statue - off of.
We rubbed the paint off the wall - off of.
We tore the label off the blanket - just fine.
We tore the wrapping off the parcel - just fine.

It seems to be related to whether the item the piece is being removed from is movable or not.

In the sentences where you have 'off of', is bare 'off' ungrammatical, or just not something you'd normally say?

Not what I'd say and sounds wrong to me, but other speakers commit these unholy sins so I have to try to not freak over them.

Re: 'scored off their corner'. Well, the meaning I had in mind was that you'd be playing some sort of team ball game with a goal at each end (eg football, hockey) where there was a rule whereby if the opposition team knocked the ball behind their own goal line, your team got a free hit of the ball from a position on or near the corner between their goal line and the sidelines, and that in this situation you would concede a corner, they would take it, but something would go wrong for them, and you (pl) would as a result be able to score a goal yourself.
I'm assuming that a) your sports don't have corners and if they do you don't call them that, and b) you'd presumably say 'from' here anyway?

Nah, I just follow sports so little I have no idea what I would use in that situation. I originally thought you might mean scored (drugs) off their (street) corner, which sounded weird coming from you. And sounds weird in general.

[Rhetorica]

For insider trading vs. the suffering of the poor: insider trading is an activity that is done, whereas the suffering of the poor is simply a phenomenon in the environment. Same with "the money" and "the land"; money is the result of an activity, but the land is omnipresent and permanent. However, I do also think there's sense behind "live off the land" being a set phrase; it's definitely time-worn.

Another quirk: who's heard of someone putting a verb into present tense before "to" when the verb should be past tense? I'm thinking specifically about future progressives like "get used to" and the specific example "supposed to". I'm guessing these examples are just random cases of rampant homophony and not regional, but if there's any geographic pattern to it that would be interesting.

[Drydic]

They're heading down the grammaticalization track that hafta/hasta/hadda (the last I'm manufacturing an orthography for since it's rarely found written in a nonformal manner, namely had to) is already well along.

I think I had more I was going to say but then I saw something shiny and got distracted for an hour

[ObsequiousNewt]

Interestingly enough, for those Drydic marked as "agent" I think I would actually use "through" instead of "from" or "off/of".

[CatDoom]

The past tense of 'spit' (expectorate) is 'spat'; that of 'spit' (poke a stick through) is 'spitted'

I think usually just use "spit," as in "hey, he spit on me!" I very rarely use the verb "spit" to refer to putting sticks in things; the more usual term here is "skewer," past tense "skewered."

Different 'from' vs. different 'than' ['than' is restricted to differences of degree, not kind]

Man... I'm not entirely sure, but I think I more or less use both interchangeably.

The past tense of 'light' is 'lit'

Sometimes; other times I use the term "lighted," usually followed by "up," as in "lighted up like a firecracker."

The p.t. of 'awaken' is 'awoke'

I think I used "awakened" more frequently, but I'm sure I've used both.

There is a difference between the intransitive 'lie' (p.t. 'lay') and the transitive 'lay' (p.t. 'laid')

Agreed.

The p.t. of 'hang [a man]' is 'hanged'

Agreed.

There is no audible distinction between 'Mary' and 'marry', but 'merry' is distinctly different

Honestly, I have trouble even figuring out how to pronounce these differently; I'm pretty sure that I use [ɛ] in all three cases. I have the same problem with "cot" and "caught"; in fact, I don't think I can consistently differentiate between [ɑ], [ɒ], and [ɔ]. The same goes for [ɜ], [ə], and [ʌ], though I think that's pretty common in American dialects.

I call bugs that glow "fireflies" and bugs that roll up "pill bugs" or "sow bugs," though when I was in elementary school I preferred the term "basketball bug."

Has any body else here used "boughten" as the past participle of "buy"? It comes quite naturally to my brothers and I, but it drives our dad crazy. We also sometimes talk about doing things "on accident" rather than "by accident," though these days I think I mostly use the latter.

[sunandshadow]

I grew up in Erie, so I'm from a neighboring isogloss, if not the exact same one.

Do you have these homophone pairs too:
mere and mirror
mayor and mare (female horse)
crayon and cran(berry)

People often think that's the most unusual trait of my dialect.

On the other hand I have a different vowel in pull vs. pool, but now I'm living in Pittsburgh, only a short distance from Erie, and the natives here pronounce those the same.

[ObsequiousNewt]

Yes, no, yes. I have something like [meɻ̩ʷ] vs [mɛɻʷ]

[sunandshadow]

Yes, no, yes. I have something like [meɻ̩ʷ] vs [mɛɻʷ]

Interesting! For me they are both [meiɹ] or [mei˞]. Same as "may" and "air". There's almost a [j] in it, because [iə] sounds a lot like [j], and [iɹ] is similar, but not quite the same.

[Pressed Bunson]

The past tense of 'spit' (expectorate) is 'spat';

Yep.

that of 'spit' (poke a stick through) is 'spitted'

That's a thing?

Different 'from' vs. different 'than' ['than' is restricted to differences of degree, not kind]

...I don't know?

The past tense of 'light' is 'lit'

Yep, and so's the past participle.

The p.t. of 'awaken' is 'awoke'

Yep. (Past participle is "awakened".)

There is a difference between the intransitive 'lie' (p.t. 'lay') and the transitive 'lay' (p.t. 'laid')

Not sure how many people around here actually adhere to this, but it's definitely in my idiolect.

The p.t. of 'hang [a man]' is 'hanged'

"Hanged" is less common than "hung", but it's still used sometimes. And I don't think I've ever heard it in an intransitive context.

There is no audible distinction between 'Mary' and 'marry',

Yep.

but 'merry' is distinctly different

Nope.

[Dewrad]

I took the money off the table - off of
I nicked the money off my friend - off of
I lived off the money for a year - off
I lived off the land for a year - off
Get off my land! (this one is borderline - for me, 'get off' is a phrasal verb here, but some people have 'get' as a verb meaning 'to leave', in which case this is transparent verb plus preposition) - off of X, but "get off!"
We scored off their corner - (not sure what this means. Context?)
He made his money off insider trading - from
He chipped a corner off the block of stone - off of
He knocked the vase off the table - off of
They make money off the suffering of the poor - off of
The ball bounced off the wall - off

I can't initially see any motivating factor behind the variants here (except "to live off" is definitely a phrasal verb for me). Either way, it's fairly low-register for me.

[KathTheDragon]

The p.t. of 'hang [a man]' is 'hanged'

"Hanged" is less common than "hung", but it's still used sometimes. And I don't think I've ever heard it in an intransitive context.

'He hanged' meaning 'he was the one swinging from the rope'.

[Kereb]

I'm p. sure I can use "off of" for nearly all of those ... exception being "lived off the land" and I think Nessari's explanation of is being a known set phrase is the reason. "Off of" is for me just a lower-register "off" and in chat, email etc I'll often spell it offa.

[Kereb]

As for the rest, just cause I'm bored cause I'm sure nobody is getting any education outta this thread:

The past tense of 'spit' (expectorate) is 'spat'; that of 'spit' (poke a stick through) is 'spitted'

yes and yes

Different 'from' vs. different 'than' ['than' is restricted to differences of degree, not kind]

got these in free variation, I think

The past tense of 'light' is 'lit'

yes

The p.t. of 'awaken' is 'awoke'

yeah but this isn't a verb used in speech very much

There is a difference between the intransitive 'lie' (p.t. 'lay') and the transitive 'lay' (p.t. 'laid')

yes in theory but I'm sure I fuck this up without catching myself

The p.t. of 'hang [a man]' is 'hanged'

but of course

There is no audible distinction between 'Mary' and 'marry', but 'merry' is distinctly different

I merge all three

'Aunt' rhymes with 'font'

nope

'Father' rhymes with 'bother'

yes

No distinction between 'cot' and 'caught'

merged.

(I've been trying to get into the habit of pronouncing them [kat] and [kawt]

[kawt]

STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT STOP IT


'When' is distinct from 'wen'

no

'lightning bugs' instead of 'fireflies'

these don't exist where I live, and I can't even remember the last time I had to talk about them. Probably would call them "fireflies" on account of hearing that most often in media.

"off of" instead of merely "off".

yes

Finishing all "where" questions with "at": "Where are you at?" (It's not just ebonics: I've heard upper-class white people say this.)

I tried to hold out against this one for a long time but gave up about ten years ago

Chester Drawers

lol no

novel p.t. "drug" for "drag"

probably not?

/ʃ/ at the start of "str", e.g. "shtrength"

no

superfluous /d/ at the end of "drown" (so that the p.t. sounds liked "drownded")

no, where I grew up this reads as childish

/iːŋ/ for /ɪŋ/ at the end of words (with added stress), which I think is a west-coast thing but I'm not sure where.

definitely not. makes you sound like Mila Kunis' character from That 70s Show

and...

Having any word at all for "spitted" pretty much makes you a Southerner, sorry.

Fuck that. People everywhere gotta barbecue.

[Hallow XIII]

seriously, there are people here who do not know what spitted meat is

[Pressed Bunson]

The p.t. of 'hang [a man]' is 'hanged'

"Hanged" is less common than "hung", but it's still used sometimes. And I don't think I've ever heard it in an intransitive context.

'He hanged' meaning 'he was the one swinging from the rope'.

OIC.

[ol bofosh]

The past tense of 'spit' (expectorate) is 'spat'
Yes

that of 'spit' (poke a stick through) is 'spitted'
Not sure. Never had to use that. I would say "put on a spit" if pushed to say something about it.

Different 'from' vs. different 'than' ['than' is restricted to differences of degree, not kind]
Not sure if I use "different from" that much. But I think I do make the distinction, at least passively.

The past tense of 'light' is 'lit'
Yep.

The p.t. of 'awaken' is 'awoke'
Yep.

There is a difference between the intransitive 'lie' (p.t. 'lay') and the transitive 'lay' (p.t. 'laid')
No, not really. I think I don't use the transitive, anyway, preferring something like "put".

The p.t. of 'hang [a man]' is 'hanged'
Yes. But only a distinction I started making a couple of years ago when I read about it. Before that I probably would have said "hung".

There is no audible distinction between 'Mary' and 'marry', but 'merry' is distinctly different
A distinction between all three. [mɛː.ʋɹɪɨ̯ mæ.ʋɹɪɨ̯ mɛ.ʋɹɪɨ̯]

'Aunt' rhymes with 'font'
No.
Aunt has start-palm-bath vowel
Font, lot-cloth vowel

'Father' rhymes with 'bother'
Again, no. Father shares vowels with aunt, and bother with font.

No distinction between 'cot' and 'caught' (I've been trying to get into the habit of pronouncing them [kat] and [kawt], but have no idea what the historical distinction actually is)
Distinct. [kɒt kɔːt]

'When' is distinct from 'wen' (Googling for the etymology of 'wen', BTW, I discovered that a word meaning 'sebaceous cyst' has been adopted for a line of hair-care products! LOL)
No, I would pronounce them the same because I've never across wen.