You

[linguoboy]

I sometimes use "stick pin" myself, whereas I wouldn't automatically know what a "straight pin" meant.

I talked to a couple about this last night. One's from Dayton (which I didn't realise was far enough south to be merged, but apparently it is), the other's from Shreveport. They actually contrast these terms: a "straight pin" has a small flat head (like the head of a nail). A "stick pin" has at least a coloured bulb, sometimes a fancier ornament. (A hatpin is a kind of "stick pin".)

[Travis B.]

Of course, I would know little about stick pins versus straight pins, obviously, since those terms simply do not exist natively for me. Heh.

[linguoboy]

Of course, I would know little about stick pins versus straight pins, obviously, since those terms simply do not exist natively for me. Heh.

Do you not have terms for different subtypes of pin? Because it looks to me that what is happening is that names for specific subtypes are getting pressed into service as more general terms. As Rad points out, "stick pin" contrasts more directly with "push pin". For me, "straight pin" contrasts primarily with "safety pin", but I recognise that some people use it to mean simply "pin".

[Radius Solis]

On reflection I'm uncertain I had any particular pin terminology either, before a couple months ago when I got involved in helping my mother sew three sets of new curtains out of bedsheet linen (because it's wayyyy cheaper than ordering custom-size curtains). As part of that project I did as much pinning as I ever want to do, and very possibly just absorbed the term from her at the time because I had no prior experience with real sewing - whereas she used to work in a draperies factory, back in the 70s. FWIW the ones she has are all what you said would be called straight pins - tiny flat heads like the heads of nails - and she called them stick pins.

[Lyhoko Leaci]

To me, if it's not a safety pin, it's just a pin. Push pin sounds vaguely familiar, though... and I think it would refer to the pins with the colored handle thing that one would use on a bulletin board.

Wait... what do pins have to do with "you"?

[Travis B.]

Of course, I would know little about stick pins versus straight pins, obviously, since those terms simply do not exist natively for me. Heh.

Do you not have terms for different subtypes of pin? Because it looks to me that what is happening is that names for specific subtypes are getting pressed into service as more general terms. As Rad points out, "stick pin" contrasts more directly with "push pin". For me, "straight pin" contrasts primarily with "safety pin", but I recognise that some people use it to mean simply "pin".

But, of course, the terms for me are push pin (as in the kind you push into some kind of board), safety pin (as in the kind on the back of, well, many pins), and then just pin as being a catch-all...

[Izambri]

I would also pronounce 'yous' with an /s/, whereas 'youse' seems to demand a /z/ (which is how I pronounce it). I have no idea why this is, though.

Same here. In my case I think is how I pronounce words ending in -ose: nose, arose... I have a [əʊz] there (or something close to that), so the same for youse [ju:z]. But there are exceptions: close, for example, has [s] not [z].

[Aurora Rossa]

I've never used "stick pin" or "straight pin" despite having the pin-pen merger (which I am trying to undo). Then again, I don't often use pins in daily life nor do most people I know so that may hae something to do with it. I don't really have distinguish singular and plural "you" either, although some people around here do use "y'all" for the plural.

[Declan]

To me, if it's not a safety pin, it's just a pin.

Pretty much the same for me. Perhaps a "hat pin" as an archaic term, and things you use to hold paper on a board are thumb tacks.

[finlay]

I say "pin" and "pen". Am I the only one?




Actually, I thought americans referred to these as thumb tacks. Wikipedia's just reminded me of the term "drawing pin", which I suppose is what I'd call it. I haven't had the occasion to for a long time, though, which is why I've forgotten the word. I guess I just call them "pins".

But then yeah, there are safety pins and stuff like that, so it's not the only kind of pin... i dunno.

[cromulant]

I say "pin" and "pen". Am I the only one?

No. I'm unmerged, and I call the things in your picture "thumbtacks." And I have no terms for subcategories of pin, except for "safety pin."

[Aurora Rossa]

I say "pin" and "pen". Am I the only one?

Hey, I'm working on saying "pin" and "pen" distinctly, although it's difficult to get into the habit.

[Yng]

I say "pin" and "pen". Am I the only one?

It's not the Murricans' fault that they can't cope with a grown-up vowel system. Theirs is a young nation, after all. :p

[schwhatever]

I'm with Travis on this. There's pushpins (the ones with the weird shaped tops) and thumbtacks (what finlay found) and sewing pins (these) and I also know vaguely of safety pins and bobby pins (although I have no idea what either are). I haven't a clue what these mysterious "straight pins" and "stick pins" are.

Hey, I'm working on saying "pin" and "pen" distinctly, although it's difficult to get into the habit.

Why?

[Radius Solis]

Actually, I thought americans referred to these [-image-] as thumb tacks.

We do.

Semantic domains for single-point fasteners, in my variety of English:

I. Thumbtacks - used on walls, billboards, etc.
Ia. normal thumbtacks
Ib. pushpins

II. Pins - used for fabrics, diapers, etc.
IIa. stick pins
IIb. safety pins

III. Brads

IV. Nails

The bobby pin is not a pointed fastener at all, but rather a metal hair clip.

[Aurora Rossa]

@Schwhatever: It's a Southernism, according to Wikipedia.

[schwhatever]

*headdesk* times a thousand

[Travis B.]

I say "pin" and "pen". Am I the only one?

Back in Wisconsin we most definitely do say pin and pen...

Actually, I thought americans referred to these [snip] as thumb tacks. Wikipedia's just reminded me of the term "drawing pin", which I suppose is what I'd call it. I haven't had the occasion to for a long time, though, which is why I've forgotten the word. I guess I just call them "pins".

Yeah, that to me is most definitely a thumb tack. I just forgot to mention that in my post above.

[TaylorS]

To me the thing you stick on a bulletin board is a tack. A pin is longer and has a little round ball at one end.

[Nortaneous]

I. Thumbtacks - used on walls, billboards, etc.
Ia. normal thumbtacks
Ib. pushpins

I have those reversed. Odd.

[alassion]

I grew up merging "pin" and "pen", but have mostly shed this habit. When I'm sober, anyway. I've heard both "stick pin" and "straight pin", which to me are synonymous and refer to the kinds of pins you have to pull out of new shirts. I've only heard "stick pin" from older people; friends of my grandparents say it all the time. Among people closer to my age, it's more common to distinguish "pin" and "pen" by saying "ink pen" instead of modifying "pin."

I say "y'all" and "you guys", mostly interchangeably.

[finlay]

1. Pins
1.1. Drawing pins
1.1.1 normal thumbtacks Drawing pins, maybe thumbtacks if I'm talking to americans
1.1.2 pushpins Dunno, but maybe map pins.
1.2 Pins - used for fabrics, diapers, etc. Not sure
1.2.1 stick pins Dunno.
1.2.2 safety pins

2. Brads Dunno

3. Nails

The bobby pin is not a pointed fastener at all, but rather a metal hair clip. I just call it a hair clip

To be honest, for me the semantic space isn't very well drawn out. I can see the distinction you're drawing between pins used with paper and pins used with fabric but I don't know if I have specific names for the fabric ones. I don't have much use for many of these names, I guess. I'd probably just describe them if I had to – like your stick pins I would call the long ones with the little round heads, and the "Brads" I might call a golden-coloured fastener thingie.

I think it might be "map pin" for your pushpin because you usually put them in maps. In practice I don't distinguish them from normal drawing pins – they serve the same purpose, but are just easier to get out and you can hang things on them.

[spats]

Regarding the innovation of new 2P pronouns in English:

There are two "stages" if you will. In the first, a substitute like "you guys" is brought in, but only used for clarification - i.e. when using "you" would be ambiguous, or when emphasizing that s/he is talking to a whole group, and the usage may not be consistent. In the second stage, the innovated word of phrase becomes a true pronoun, and is always used.

In New England, we usually used "you guys", but it was a clarifying thing. My mother in law is from upstate New York and uses "youse" or "yuz" consistently as a 2P pronoun. Down here in Virginia where I live now, y'all is a pretty consistent 2P pronoun among locals but not transplants.

I think the "all y'all" thing is a good sort of test. Would a speaker use "all [of] <2P>", or "all of you" to address the entirety of a group? My mother in law would definitely use "all of youse", and most Southerners would use "all y'all", while a Bostonian who normally uses "you guys" would probably just say "all of you".

[Cathbad]

There are two "stages" if you will. In the first, a substitute like "you guys" is brought in, but only used for clarification - i.e. when using "you" would be ambiguous, or when emphasizing that s/he is talking to a whole group, and the usage may not be consistent. In the second stage, the innovated word of phrase becomes a true pronoun, and is always used.

I think I've taken to the habit of the "second stage" by now - where I always use you guys to refer to 1+ groups that do not include me. I'm pretty certain that most of my co-students at Edinburgh share this usage. But to most non-native (or non-near-native) speakers of English (or indeed those not exposed to a lot of native usage), this often sounds weird, since they have been Taught that the 2nd person PL pronoun is you. So in Istanbul a couple of days ago, I was more than a bit shocked when I used "you guys" to refer to a group composed of one male and female, and I got criticized for it: "You guys?! But she's a girl!"

This would never happen when talking to other students at Edinburgh, where "you guys" can safely be used for an all-female group as well. I remember being slightly annoyed at it when I first heard it as well, but it's actually really really useful.

I also sometimes find it necessary to distinguish 2nd person dual, by saying "you two" (although you guys usually works just as well for me) - arguably a legacy of my native tongue, which is famous for its very consistent presence of the Dual.

[tezcatlip0ca]

Actually, I would almost never say "you guys", even though I'm a near-native English speaker (started learning at 4, mastered it at 11, lived in Tucson from 6 to 12). Prescriptivism and conlangery are not compatible...

I do feel the need for a second person plural pronoun, but none of the alternatives appeals to me.