Learn Northern Germanic the exciting way

[Magb]

- to my ears, <er> in Norwegian sounds like [{r] or even [ar], as do other occurrences of <e> before <r>, not [E:r]. Does that make sense?

You're right. /e:/ becomes [æ:] before /r/ for most Norwegians, except in inflected forms like ser "sees", where it remains [e:] or [E:] or whatever. This change is missing from some western dialects though, and the word er in particular lacks the lowered vowel in more dialects still, but the canonical pronunciation is [æ:4_0] both for nynorsk and bokmål. Short /E/ being lowered to [æ] before /r/ is even more common.

My own /æ/ is pretty low, so I wouldn't be surprised if some people hear it as [a]. But again, canonically it's pronunced [æ].

- doesn't <v> represent a labiodental approximant, rather than a fricative?

Yeah. Though I think I pronounce it [v] when it follows a short vowel, e.g. avl "breeding" = ["Av.r`=]

[Skomakar'n]

- to my ears, <er> in Norwegian sounds like [{r] or even [ar], as do other occurrences of <e> before <r>, not [E:r]. Does that make sense?

You're right. /e:/ becomes [æ:] before /r/ for most Norwegians, except in inflected forms like ser "sees", where it remains [e:] or [E:] or whatever. This change is missing from some western dialects though, and the word er in particular lacks the lowered vowel in more dialects still, but the canonical pronunciation is [æ:4_0] both for nynorsk and bokmål. Short /E/ being lowered to [æ] before /r/ is even more common.

My own /æ/ is pretty low, so I wouldn't be surprised if some people hear it as [a]. But again, canonically it's pronunced [æ].

You're completely right. Same mistake as when I wrote the <navnet mit> for Danish; repetitive work causes the mistake of writing it one more time than I should. Fixing it up right away.

[WanderlustKoko]

Miekko: Finland is NOT Scandinavia despite that there are Swedes living there. It is Nordic when you include Finland. THIS is Scandinavia: Denmark, Norway and Sweden and THIS is Nordic: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, and The Faroe Islands. Now linguistically you are technically right but it's Nordic NOT Scandinavia, Finnish is closer to Estonian but you know this already. On another note, I do find Finland Swedish to be more pleasant than Skånska.

Skormakar'n: Looks great so far. I can't wait to see more.

[Drydic]

Miekko: Finland is NOT Scandinavia despite that there are Swedes living there. It is Nordic when you include Finland. THIS is Scandinavia: Denmark, Norway and Sweden and THIS is Nordic: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, and The Faroe Islands. Now linguistically you are technically right but it's Nordic NOT Scandinavia, Finnish is closer to Estonian but you know this already. On another note, I do find Finland Swedish to be more pleasant than Skånska.

Skormakar'n: Looks great so far. I can't wait to see more.

Dial it back a few notches bud. The definitions of the two words are fluid nowadays even if you don't want them to be. And anyways, linguistic definitions are the ones being used here, not geographic ones.

Anyways I don't see you screaming at Skomakar'n for including Icelandic in this thread, so your argument is invalid anyways.

(Also, Scandinavia is a placename noun, while Nordic is an adjective; learn the difference please.)

[Miekko]

Miekko: Finland is NOT Scandinavia despite that there are Swedes living there. It is Nordic when you include Finland. THIS is Scandinavia: Denmark, Norway and Sweden and THIS is Nordic: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, and The Faroe Islands. Now linguistically you are technically right but it's Nordic NOT Scandinavia, Finnish is closer to Estonian but you know this already. On another note, I do find Finland Swedish to be more pleasant than Skånska.

Skormakar'n: Looks great so far. I can't wait to see more.

Fuck you too. (Seriously, though, read my fucking post and you'll notice I nowhere say Finland is part of Scandinavia in it, and your post is trying to find fault where none is, going to the fucking lengths of misrepresenting what I said. So ... fucking drop that act, it's stupid. The thing we were talking about was not whether Finland is scandinavian, and if you had even a trace of reading comprehension in you, you would have noticed that. I was talking about whether Finland is a country of which we can say it's one where a northern Germanic language is spoken, and it fucking is. As it also is one of those in which such a language is *an official language*, it should be included in lists of scandophone countries. As a further way of showing why you're stupid about this: Sweden has always had a Finnish-speaking population, so there are a historically well-rooted Finnish minority in a Scandinavian country - yet this, obviously, doesn't make Finnish Scandinavian. Still, the main point was: learn reading comprehension.)

[Skomakar'n]

It's nice to hear that some of you want to read more.

I'm pretty busy with work at the moment, but I'll see if I can get a new section written sometime soon.

[WanderlustKoko]

Drydic guy: I know that but I obviously misread something Miekko said (maybe confused something she might have said in another thread or just simply misinterpreted it. For that I am sorry.) I don't see why you think I am "screaming" when I am not. I am also not as dumb or ignorant as you and Miekko seem to think I am. I know that Icelandic and Faroese (for that matter) are Germanic and related to Norwegian, Swedish and Danish. I don't know why you think I didn't know about that. So if it is you who needs to "dial it back a bit" and not me. I was under the impression that both geographical and linguistic where being used here. That was just something must have missed but don't just assume that I don't know anything about Northern Germanic languages just because of a misunderstanding from Miekko's post.

Miekko: You are so immature that it is quite sad. Learn to not be vulgar because quite frankly it makes you look like an idiot. Like I said, I misinterpreted what you said for the fact that you kept raging over including Finland and I thought you were referring to it as Scandinavia and that's why I said what I said. Now it was hard to your post past all the vulgarity in it. Also what gives you the right to flat out make statements like "drop the fucking act, it's stupid" and "learn reading comprehension" from just that? Wow, you really need not jump to idiotic conclusions like that. Because you what? I DO happen to know that Swedish is spoken in Finland and is an official language there and if I saw that you were trying to say "Don't forget to include Finland as a part of this" without all the vulgarity and slanderous language that you were and are still using than yeah, I wouldn't have said that but because (and yeah this is my fault for not looking further into your post) I saw:

You must have known what I wanted you to fucking add. "and parts of Finland". This is fucking obvious. You try to pontificate as some kind of expert on Northern Germanic and don't even grasp that?

And this:

"Fuck you for changing it by adding "mainly", when "and Finland" would have been more true, equally functional, not broken the flow of the text, reflected the fact that it's a fucking official fucking language in fucking Finland, and not kept trying to deny the existence of a whole fucking Swedish-speaking community."

then I would not have felt the need to correct you on that manner. Simmer down and learn to mature.

[Ulrike Meinhof]

text

I'm sorry, but Miekko is pretty well respected on this board, and you're not, so you're going to lose this battle.

[Drydic]

Drydic guy: I know that but I obviously misread something Miekko said (maybe confused something she might have said in another thread or just simply misinterpreted it. For that I am sorry.) I don't see why you think I am "screaming" when I am not. I am also not as dumb or ignorant as you and Miekko seem to think I am. I know that Icelandic and Faroese (for that matter) are Germanic and related to Norwegian, Swedish and Danish. I don't know why you think I didn't know about that. So if it is you who needs to "dial it back a bit" and not me. I was under the impression that both geographical and linguistic where being used here. That was just something must have missed but don't just assume that I don't know anything about Northern Germanic languages just because of a misunderstanding from Miekko's post.

I said you were screaming because of the text alterations here:

Miekko: Finland is NOT Scandinavia despite that there are Swedes living there. It is Nordic when you include Finland. THIS is Scandinavia: Denmark, Norway and Sweden and THIS is Nordic: Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland, and The Faroe Islands. Now linguistically you are technically right but it's Nordic NOT Scandinavia, Finnish is closer to Estonian but you know this already. On another note, I do find Finland Swedish to be more pleasant than Skånska.

Bold, bold italic, underlined bold colored, a second time.

I'm not a fan of the exclusive Scandinavia at any rate. If it's touched by the Norwegian, Barents, or Baltic Seas that's good enough for me.

[Miekko]

Koko.dk,
parts of my rather angry style in these posts have to do with earlier interactions with Skomakar'n. Don't think this just came out of nowhere.

[WanderlustKoko]

Ulrike Meinhof: I'm not looking to fight Miekko, I just clearly misunderstood him and his writing style. I don't start fights intentionally just so you know.
Drydic Guy: I was emphasizing not screaming/yelling, if were to do that it would be in CAPS LOCK not bolded and colour changed.
Miekko: Oh okay, then that makes more sense, sorry if I came off as rude.

[Ulrike Meinhof]

Ulrike Meinhof: I'm not looking to fight Miekko, I just clearly misunderstood her and her writing style. I don't start fights intentionally just so you know.

Him and his writing style.

[WanderlustKoko]

^^Oh, whoops! *Changed*

[Drydic]

Drydic Guy: I was emphasizing not screaming/yelling, if were to do that it would be in CAPS LOCK not bolded and colour changed.

Well it came off as you being very irate, which I used screaming as a shorthand for (since the two are usually intimately linked).

And I think I'll start including Canada in Scandinavia just to be that way.

[gsandi]

This is a great idea. I certainly intend to come back and learn more about the North Germanic languages, especially as I find insights from a native speaker of one of the languages in a family (or subfamily) more useful than those from outsiders, no matter how well they know a language.

One question: the matter of using the informal second person du in the continental NG languages, as I have always wondered about this. Can you really use these forms in Sweden or Denmark when approaching a stranger, say an older man or woman, to ask something like "Can you tell me, please, how I can get to the station?". It would certainly raise an eyebrow in European French to ask "S'il te plaît, tu peux m'indiquer la direction à la gare?", and in Hungarian the equivalent would be considered extremely rude.

[Ulrike Meinhof]

One question: the matter of using the informal second person du in the continental NG languages, as I have always wondered about this. Can you really use these forms in Sweden or Denmark when approaching a stranger, say an older man or woman, to ask something like "Can you tell me, please, how I can get to the station?". It would certainly raise an eyebrow in European French to ask "S'il te plaît, tu peux m'indiquer la direction à la gare?", and in Hungarian the equivalent would be considered extremely rude.

I can't speak for Norway or Denmark, but in Sweden this would be completely normal and the expected form to use in that situation, yes. There are some people (not many) who insist on using the plural "polite" form, but that just tends to come off as either confusing ("is there anyone else here?") or weird and slightly arrogant.

It's best just to think of Swedish as a language without a T/V distinction.

[Skomakar'n]

One question: the matter of using the informal second person du in the continental NG languages, as I have always wondered about this. Can you really use these forms in Sweden or Denmark when approaching a stranger, say an older man or woman, to ask something like "Can you tell me, please, how I can get to the station?". It would certainly raise an eyebrow in European French to ask "S'il te plaît, tu peux m'indiquer la direction à la gare?", and in Hungarian the equivalent would be considered extremely rude.

I can't speak for Norway or Denmark, but in Sweden this would be completely normal and the expected form to use in that situation, yes. There are some people (not many) who insist on using the plural "polite" form, but that just tends to come off as either confusing ("is there anyone else here?") or weird and slightly arrogant.

It's best just to think of Swedish as a language without a T/V distinction.

I agree.

[Magb]

I'd describe T-V in Norwegian as slightly more common than "thou" in contemporary English.

[Drydic]

I'd describe T-V in Norwegian as slightly more common than "thou" in contemporary English.

Thou is not used at all in contemporary English. Not. At. All.

[Magb]

I'd describe T-V in Norwegian as slightly more common than "thou" in contemporary English.

Thou is not used at all in contemporary English. Not. At. All.

Indeed. And the T-V distinction in Norwegian is used slightly more often.

[Drydic]

I'd describe T-V in Norwegian as slightly more common than "thou" in contemporary English.

Thou is not used at all in contemporary English. Not. At. All.

Indeed. And the T-V distinction in Norwegian is used slightly more often.

In other words it's barely used ever?

[Magb]

I'd describe T-V in Norwegian as slightly more common than "thou" in contemporary English.

Thou is not used at all in contemporary English. Not. At. All.

Indeed. And the T-V distinction in Norwegian is used slightly more often.

In other words it's barely used ever?

Thou art correct.

[Drydic]

I'd describe T-V in Norwegian as slightly more common than "thou" in contemporary English.

Thou is not used at all in contemporary English. Not. At. All.

Indeed. And the T-V distinction in Norwegian is used slightly more often.

In other words it's barely used ever?

Thou art correct.

Fine. Now stop acting stupid. Because that's how you're coming across.

[Magb]

Fine. Now stop acting stupid. Because that's how you're coming across.

Just trying to lighten the mood in a thread full of needless anger and shouting. No offense meant.

[Bob Johnson]

stop acting stupid

Glass houses.