Words that are their own opposites

[King of My Own Niche]

The actual reason is more along the lines of that くる and する were originally just く and す, which conjugated (fairly) regularly like other verbs in these paradigms. In fact, many verbs ending in -su are relics of the verb す having been fused on the end of the root, as it was once used like the ending る, but added a slightly more polite nuance. Hence why you might still find verbs with similar forms and meanings like naru and nasu.

So the forms ki- and shi- are regularly derived if we consider them as forms of く and す. Forms like shiro were created by analogy with the later -ru ending, which enters conflict with the older form se(yo). Not too sure about the forms in ko-, I'm too lazy to look it up.

That is interesting! I had asked my teacher today about the origins of those verb's conjugations and while she could tell me that it wasn't because it "just sounds better", she couldn't tell me much more. Her expertise lie in conversational Japanese, not its history. Thanks for that.

Finlay, I found your parse of adjectival negatives delightfully thought provoking! I might bring it up with my teacher when she is not so burned out from the senior's graduation

[finlay]

I say I'm a beginner; i have technically also done a module in my linguistics degree that focussed on the structure of Japanese, mostly its morphosyntax because that's where the teacher's expertise lies. I can't remember any of it (it's now a year ago), and I'm not sure we were taught this, but I have the textbook lying around somewhere.

I will say this, though: it was infinitely more useful for working out how Japanese verbs conjugate than the actual Japanese classes I've taken, particularly since they don't fucking bother teaching you the regular verb conjugations; only the desu/masu forms. I mean that really pisses me off. It's like trying to learn French but not getting taught the "tu" form in case we use it in a situation that's supposed to be formal; naturally, the converse can also fucking occur... fuck's sake.

One example that I'll relay is the verb kaku (write, IIRC), which becomes kaita in the past tense – the [k] → [ i ] sound change is absolutely not transparent unless you approach it from a historical/sound change perspective. Of course, this little interesting nuance is lost when you don't actually learn kaku or kaita, but only kakimasu and kakimasita.

[King of My Own Niche]

Too true, luckily my instructor believes in teaching us more than the polite-present and polite-past forms, although anything beyond -imasu, -imashita, -imasen, -imasendeshita is part of the second year course. She knows, and warns us, that taking a one year college course spread out over two high school years is not going to make us fluent. But she still gives us as much as she can, using a lot of supplements from other courses she's used. Still, we have a high drop rate for the class.

It's funny that the little Washington podunk town I live in manages to get so many teachers with really high levels of education and experience. I could tell you so many stories about my math teacher! But that's just getting off the off-topic.

[Ulrike Meinhof]

I notice we've missed gay. Of course it's semantic shift over time rather than a simultaneous double meaning, but we're at least still familiar with the old meaning in various phrases and lyrics. If your shirt gets called gay, it isn't because you have donned gay apparel.

If we're doing diachronical differences, there's also nice.

[Bristel]

It's funny that the little Washington podunk town I live in manages to get so many teachers with really high levels of education and experience. I could tell you so many stories about my math teacher! But that's just getting off the off-topic.

Why? My town in Washington had a Japanese class, and the high school my step brother went to just a few miles south of mine also had it.

[Kai_DaiGoji]

My favorite example is 'dust.' It can mean to remove small bits of particulate, or to add small bits of particulate.

There's also a couple of good examples in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym

[Shrdlu]

There's also a couple of good examples in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym

In Korean as spoken in South Korea, the words for "field marshal" and "enemy", "wonsu", are homophonous. The two separate meanings are written distinctly in hanja, but appear as homographs in hangul. In North Korea, the latter meaning is pronounced as wonssu.[1]

I spot serious trouble up ahead.

[Drydic]

There's also a couple of good examples in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym

In Korean as spoken in South Korea, the words for "field marshal" and "enemy", "wonsu", are homophonous. The two separate meanings are written distinctly in hanja, but appear as homographs in hangul. In North Korea, the latter meaning is pronounced as wonssu.[1]

I spot serious trouble up ahead.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

[Shrdlu]

There's also a couple of good examples in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym

In Korean as spoken in South Korea, the words for "field marshal" and "enemy", "wonsu", are homophonous. The two separate meanings are written distinctly in hanja, but appear as homographs in hangul. In North Korea, the latter meaning is pronounced as wonssu.[1]

I spot serious trouble up ahead.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

Imagine screaming "kill the enemy, but not the field marshal", in the heat of battle
It would be ironic if NK went on to win the war just because SK screwed up because of this auto-.antonym.

[Drydic]

There's also a couple of good examples in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auto-antonym

In Korean as spoken in South Korea, the words for "field marshal" and "enemy", "wonsu", are homophonous. The two separate meanings are written distinctly in hanja, but appear as homographs in hangul. In North Korea, the latter meaning is pronounced as wonssu.[1]

I spot serious trouble up ahead.

I love the smell of napalm in the morning.

Imagine screaming "kill the enemy, but not the field marshal", in the heat of battle
It would be ironic if NK went on to win the war just because SK screwed up because of this auto-.antonym.

Ironic and impossible, unless it was literally a carbon-copy of the 50-53 conflict.

[King of My Own Niche]

Why? My town in Washington had a Japanese class, and the high school my step brother went to just a few miles south of mine also had it.

I didn't mean just in Japanese, sorry. It seemed a logical jump in my head, but to clarify: Including my Japanese teacher, our school has what seems to be a number of insanely qualified teachers that seems incongruous with the podunk-ishness of the town. For example: we have the only high school electronics program this side of the state, and it's considered to be the best such program in the entire state. My math teacher has a double major in music and math, her thesis paper was the instruction manual for one of the first electronic synthesizers in the US, has worked for Boeing, and designed the first trifocal contact lens.

It's crazy! But it's also off topic.

[blank stare II]

The word drought can mean a shortage of water or to take a drink. For instance drought beer('draft' in the U.S.)

[Astraios]

The word drought can mean a shortage of water or to take a drink. For instance drought beer('draft' in the U.S.)

Except that'd be 'draught'.

[blank stare II]

! I thought that looked wrong.
Thought I finally had something to add to this thread

[Kereb]

I didn't mean just in Japanese, sorry. It seemed a logical jump in my head, but to clarify: Including my Japanese teacher...

you're in japanese class?



is ... this intentional?

EDIT: okay it won't be obvious to everyone but it's hard not to be reminded of the word kōmon.

[Taernsietr]

ROFL @Kereb

--

In [highly informal and considered "bad language" in most contexts] Brazilian Portuguese, foda can mean "awesome" or "hard to deal with", "idiot" as adjectives, while meaning (though more rarely used) "sex" as a noun. As a verb (foder or fuder), it can mean "to have sex" or "to cause trouble to", "to damage".

[brandrinn]

I didn't mean just in Japanese, sorry. It seemed a logical jump in my head, but to clarify: Including my Japanese teacher...

you're in japanese class?



is ... this intentional?

EDIT: okay it won't be obvious to everyone but it's hard not to be reminded of the word kōmon.

Komon with a short vowel means something else, though. I saw a bar with that name once, and it had nothing to do with asses.

[Mr. Z]

I didn't mean just in Japanese, sorry. It seemed a logical jump in my head, but to clarify: Including my Japanese teacher...

you're in japanese class?



is ... this intentional?

EDIT: okay it won't be obvious to everyone but it's hard not to be reminded of the word kōmon.

Komon with a short vowel means something else, though. I saw a bar with that name once, and it had nothing to do with asses.

Oh, dammit! I wrote a really long explanation on why there actually is a long vowel in the acronym, only to find out that even though my explanation is (barely) valid, the long vowel is in the wrong place!

[Bob Johnson]

I thought you were referring to Mito Kōmon. It's not that dirty.

[Mr. Z]

In my early conlanging, I had a nation called "Komon". They spoke the Komonite language and established a Komon Empire. Now that I think about it, they were pretty antagonistic, so I guess I could add a long vowel to their name and make it amusing.

BTW, English participles should have comparative and superlative forms. I would like to be able to say that one thing is amusinger than the other, and that the third is the amusingest. Now that I think about it, though, that would mean we would need to allow forms such as "differenter" and "fantastichest/fantastiquest/fantastikest/fantasticest", so... alright, I give up.

[Soap]

itd probably just be spelled with -ck- the way we have 'trafficker' and 'trafficking'.

[Skomakar'n]

In my early conlanging, I had a nation called "Komon". They spoke the Komonite language and established a Komon Empire. Now that I think about it, they were pretty antagonistic, so I guess I could add a long vowel to their name and make it amusing.

BTW, English participles should have comparative and superlative forms. I would like to be able to say that one thing is amusinger than the other, and that the third is the amusingest. Now that I think about it, though, that would mean we would need to allow forms such as "differenter" and "fantastichest/fantastiquest/fantastikest/fantasticest", so... alright, I give up.

What's wrong with using more/most? Same thing.

[jal]

that would mean we would need to allow forms such as "differenter" and "fantastichest/fantastiquest/fantastikest/fantasticest", so... alright, I give up.

Or do it the Dutch way, and make the superlative out of consonants only (i.e. -st)! So to get lovely coda clusters like "-rtst" ("zwartst"), or the theoretical champion, "-rfstst" ("herfstst", "most autumn").


JAL

[Qwynegold]

Yeah, as I say, IME Japanese teachers aren't generally very good for knowing shit about their language. Worse, the one I had most recently wasn't actually Japanese. And there was a bit of a lack of mutual respect between us.

Oh btw, blank stare, you keep reviving a lot of really old threads.

[finlay]

theoretical champion

so how's it actually pronounced?