The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Fixsme »

jmcd wrote:Fixsme: The creole usage in the article seems suspect: I tried googling for French creole C and French Creole D and got two Swadesh lists: http://ielex.mpi.nl/language/French_Creole_C/, http://ielex.mpi.nl/language/French_Creole_C/ but there's still hint as what distinguishes them and the forms cited in the second list seem unlikely what with the incomplete sound changes ('wespire' when 'r' becomes 'w' unconditionally otherwise)

I admit I can't find the reference to Haiti myself but there is only one creole language in Haiti anyway.

Loanwords aren't that much of a problem with creoles because the creole languages with the most substrate (West-Central African) influence, such as Saramaccan, still only have
Sorry, I do not understand your last sentence...

I told a friend (he has a master in biology) about this article, its method and the usage of creole (his family comes from the Antilles). When he heard about this, he looked at me with round eyes and laughed. Each island has its own creole, if I sum up, it's like having the same ingredients but with a different recipe each time. One language is more spanish influenced, another one English influenced. That's why you would find incomplete sound change. Moreover, there are no standard orthography.

Here are the references: French Creole C, "Dominican French", Mervyn C. Alleyne, French Creole D, "Dominica, B. W. I.", Douglas Taylor.
http://books.google.fr/books/about/An_I ... ALAAAAIAAJ (p. 100)

By the way, in the 2012 article, the two creoles have disappeared. The weird Greek dialect also has.



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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Matrix »

jal wrote:Escuse my ignorance on the matter, but what exacty is "ḱ"? Is that just a fancy PIE way of writing "some kind of k which is not k"?


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/ḱ/ is what is known as a "palatovelar", while /k/ is a "plain velar". Of course, these days, most people think that /ḱ/ was [k] and /k/ was [q], what with the former being much more common than the latter.
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Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh. Ônal zeh.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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EDIT: cut to new thread
Last edited by jmcd on Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Sleinad Flar »

Not to be blunt, but what is this stuff about creoles doing in the PIE thread? Can that discussion be continued in another thread, please?

@KathAveara: sorry for calling you Kathy, I assure you that was just in jest. I'll respond to your remarks later, because the idea is rather intriguing.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by WeepingElf »

Sleinad Flar wrote:Not to be blunt, but what is this stuff about creoles doing in the PIE thread? Can that discussion be continued in another thread, please?
SECONDED! The creole discussion doesn't belong here.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

Thirded. PIE wasn't a creole.
Sleinad Flar wrote:@KathAveara: sorry for calling you Kathy, I assure you that was just in jest. I'll respond to your remarks later, because the idea is rather intriguing.
Eh, it's fine so long as I don't keep getting called that. And please do - it struck me as a possibility well worth exploring, but my knowledge of specific developments is sadly limited.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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WeepingElf wrote:The difference is in place of articulation: *ḱ was more forward than *k, something like palatal vs. velar or velar vs. uvular.
Ok, thanks, that makes sense given the discussion.


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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Sleinad Flar »

I've just read this article by Melchert, which reviews the Luwian and Lycian evidence for three dorsal stops. His conclusion is pretty remarkable:
Melchert wrote:The unconditioned three-way contrast I claimed in 1989 for the voiceless dorsals in Luvian and Lycian is to be rejected. Luvo-Lycian is rather the “mirror-image” of Albanian: before the merger of the front and non-front velars, the voiceless front velar, but not the non-front velar, underwent conditioned palatalization. A similar conditioned palatalization of just voiced front velars is also possible, but cannot at this point be affirmed. Thus Anatolian is in terms of the traditional classification “centum”: it does show an eventual phonological merger of the front and non-front velars.
The conditioned palatalization he's speaking of is the sound change k' > ts before {i, e, e:, y, w}, but k' > k elsewhere. Back velars (and in Luwian labiovelars) didn't show this conditioned palatalization, however there are just a few (albeit strong) pieces of evidence for this: *ke(:)s- > kisa:- and *kwi- > Luwian kui- Lycian ti-.

Remarkably, the palatalization also occurs before /w/, e.g. *ek'wo- > azuwa- and *k'won- > zuwani-. Melchert also remarks that 'there's a strong tendency of labiovelars to be palatalized" and references (Hock 2009) for that conclusion. We know this conditioned palatalization of labiovelars occurs in Albanian and Greek, but I'm wondering about other examples, so I'm going to try to find that Hock article.

I'm mentioning this as there is no reason to assume that /k'w/ and /kw/ are less likely to show fronting than simple /k'/ or /k/, in fact they are more likely to show palatalization, at least before front vowels. However, this doesn't go against KathAveara's proposal for the three-dorsal series /k q kw/, in fact, it supports it: the fact that the labiovelars in Albanian show conditioned palatalization shows that the merger of back velars and labiovelars in Satem languages was rather late. Similarly does the Luwian evidence show that the conditioned palatalization of front velars happened before the merger of front and back velars in Centum languages. The merger processes in the dorsal series were rather late, and a late fronting of /q/ would be a neat explanation for this.

To summarize, and starting from a three dorsal series /k q kw/, the order of post-PIE sound changes affecting the dorsal series:
1a. Conditioned palatalization of front velars in Luwo-Lycian, k > ts before front vowels and /w/.
1b. Conditioned palatalization of labiovelars in Albanian (something like kw > tsw before front vowels)
2. Unconditioned palatalization of front velars in Satem languages (maybe inhibited in some environments), k > ts, s , s' or the like.
3. Loss of labial element in labiovelars in Satem languages, kw > k
4. Unconditioned fronting of back velars everywhere, q > k, which leads to a merger of front and back velars in Centum languages and of velars and labiovelars in Satem languages,

In order for this to work, the dialects must still form a continuum, and Anatolian must already have splitted into at least two branches, as sound change 1a. does not affect Hittite and Palaic. Otherwise it's neat: I especially like it how the gap of /k/ left in 2 is filled by 3, probably immediately.

To summarize the summary: both the Luwian and Albanian developments speak in favour of KathAveara's proposal, which starts to look better by the minute, despite my earlier objections.

(I also just realized I've always spelled "palatalization" wrongly as "palatization". Live and learn.)
Last edited by Sleinad Flar on Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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Very interesting stuff, Sleinad!

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

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KathAveara wrote:Is /kʷ/ > /t/ really palatalisation, or just an unusual phoneme filling a massive hole in the distribution of a typlogically common one?
There is corroborating evidence for a shift *c > /t/ between Proto-Greek and Classical Greek, such as *pj > *pc > /pt/ and *kj > *cc > /tt/ ~ /ss/.
KathAveara wrote:However, if we view this palatalisation as a wave originating in Indo-Iranian (as it almost certainly was, given the distribution of satemisation)
An aside: the distribution of satemization fairly neatly also matches up with IE branches adjacent to Uralic. (Tocharian introduced palatalization as well, although affecting both its merged Centumic *k, and *t.) I wonder if this is a coincidence, or if it means that the idea to have a palatal : velar and not a front velar : back velar contrast rubbed off from there somehow.

Alternately, since there's far more evidence for IE influence on Uralic than the opposite, I wonder if this can have gone in the other direction — that Uralic is also "Satemic" and that its *ć, *k come from former *k, *q.

(OTOH this does not fit too well together with roots with clusters like *aćkəl 'step'. I definitely would not want to reconstruct earlier **akqəl.)
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Sleinad Flar »

Tropylium wrote:
KathAveara wrote:Is /kʷ/ > /t/ really palatalisation, or just an unusual phoneme filling a massive hole in the distribution of a typlogically common one?
There is corroborating evidence for a shift *c > /t/ between Proto-Greek and Classical Greek, such as *pj > *pc > /pt/ and *kj > *cc > /tt/ ~ /ss/.
I'm not sure what this has to do with the question at hand, unless you mean that palatalization of other consonants eventually also led to /t/.

However, Greek /kʷ/ > /t/ is in fact a real palatalization because 1. it only happened before front vowels (elsewhere, /kʷ/ > /p/), 2. PIE /t/ was retained in Greek, at least in the more archaic dialects (/t/ did show palatalization to /s/ in Attic (and Ionic?) before /i/, but this change is rather late), and therefore was still a very common consonant. Interestingly, the changes in /kʷ/ happened in historic times, as Mycenaean Greek still retains it.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

I was under the impression that /t/ had already shifted to /s/ before front vowels by the time /kʷ/ became /t/ in the same environments.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Sleinad Flar »

Nope, Doric Greek still retains -ti-, but has shifted kw > p,t. Besides, /t/ doesn't shift before /e/ and /e:/, while /kw/ does (to /t/ that is, not to /p/).
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by vo1dwalk3r »

I have a question regarding the PIE ablaut. Why do some proterokinetic nouns (the (t)i/u- stems) have a stressed zero grade suffix in some weak forms (e.g. the instrumental singular)?
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Sleinad Flar »

Because /i/ and /u/ were able to carry the accent. :-)

A more serious answer: because the reconstructed i- and u-stem forms are a mixture of different ablaut paradigms: only the singular (except instrumental) forms point to a PK pattern, the plural (except nominative and possibly accusative) forms point to anything but PK. Ins SG -i-h1 and Acc PL -i-ns look like acrostatic forms, and Nom PL -eyes looks like a hysterokinetic form, of all things. Hittite points to hysterokinetic (or amphikinetic) forms as well (Gen SG -iyas etc.). The evidence points to multiple accent/ablaut patterns in PIE, which were mixed into one paradigm in post-Anatolian PIE. One could wonder if the accent pattern was still PK by that point, or already had been generalized to either root accent or suffix accent, at least in the non-neuter i- and u-stems.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

Although, with the sole exception of the gen.sg, the suffix syllable is full-grade when the ending begins with a vowel, and zero-grade when the ending begins in a consonant (at least, in the reconstruction I saw)

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Sleinad Flar »

True, in late PIE this simple rule applies to the i-stems. Even in the gen. sg., as in the Hittite i-stem adjective declension this is -as < *-ayas < *-ey-os. In post-Anatolian PIE this has for some reason been shortened to *-ey-s.
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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

Probably by generalisation of the zero-grade ablaut variant of the ending from other consonant stems, whereas Hittite has generalised the o-grade variant (from where? o-stems?)

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Zju »

How do we know that PIE proper (that is, excluding Hittite and Tocharian) had eight cases and that some of the oblique cases were not innovated independently? Some of the endings in the various branches do not resemble each other that much, the most notable example being the case for bʰ vs. m in dative and instrumental plural. Infact, how do we know that e.g. the Germanic branch ever had more than 4 cases? Are there any fossilised caseforms of the other cases, something which one can expect when a case falls out of use?
A side question - in which languages and families are the cases best preserved in terms of their number?

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Valdeut »

Zju wrote:How do we know that PIE proper (that is, excluding Hittite and Tocharian) had eight cases and that some of the oblique cases were not innovated independently? Some of the endings in the various branches do not resemble each other that much, the most notable example being the case for bʰ vs. m in dative and instrumental plural. Infact, how do we know that e.g. the Germanic branch ever had more than 4 cases? Are there any fossilised caseforms of the other cases, something which one can expect when a case falls out of use?
A side question - in which languages and families are the cases best preserved in terms of their number?
Proto-Germanic is usually reconstructed with 6 cases. The instrumental is fairly well attested in older West Germanic and there are at least traces of it in North Germanic. And the vocative might be attested in some runic inscriptions, although this is less certain.

Apart from that, the dative singular of the neuter and masculine a-stem appears to go back to the PIE locative rather than the dative. And some adverbial endings are thought to reflect an old ablative.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by TaylorS »

I have been re-reading Ancestral Journeys by Jean Manco and she mentions that Proto-Uralic speakers mainly carried Y-DNA haplotype N1c, which had it's origins in East Asia and spread up into Northern Eurasia following the end of the Last Ice Age.

Proto-Indo-European speakers, on the other hand, were mainly carriers of haplotype R1a, a West Eurasian marker.

But Proto-Uralic and PIE seem to be related, but their speakers seem to have had genetic markers that came from very different places. So what the hell is going on?

The only explanation I can think of is that there was a wholesale language replacement sometime in the early Mesolithic, in which the peoples of the Pontic steppes decided to switch to speaking the Proto-Indo-Uralic speech of either eastern neighbors for some reason.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by Zju »

TaylorS wrote:The only explanation I can think of is that there was a wholesale language replacement sometime in the early Mesolithic, in which the peoples of the Pontic steppes decided to switch to speaking the Proto-Indo-Uralic speech of either eastern neighbors for some reason.
How can we know which people switched to which language? I mean, even if we accept the macro-Nostratascist hypothesis, this still tells us nothing about where the proto language was spoken back then.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

We know that the Indo-Europeans supplanted the Old Europeans, but do we know that the Indo-Europeans didn't somhow pick up R1a from the Old Europeans?

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by hwhatting »

KathAveara wrote:We know that the Indo-Europeans supplanted the Old Europeans, but do we know that the Indo-Europeans didn't somhow pick up R1a from the Old Europeans?
IE supplanted whatever the Old Europeans spoke, but there doesn't have to have been much physical displacement - the OE speakers probably just switched to IE languages.

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Re: The Great Proto-Indo-European Thread

Post by KathTheDragon »

hwhatting wrote:
KathAveara wrote:We know that the Indo-Europeans supplanted the Old Europeans, but do we know that the Indo-Europeans didn't somhow pick up R1a from the Old Europeans?
IE supplanted whatever the Old Europeans spoke, but there doesn't have to have been much physical displacement - the OE speakers probably just switched to IE languages.
Yeah, that's what I meant to say. The Old Europeans were assimilated into the Indo-Europeans, so why couldn't that be the source of R1a?

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