Weird natlang phonologies

Discussion of natural languages, or language in general.
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dhok
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Post by dhok »

Nortaneous wrote: (yes that means [F_0_h])
I want a recording. Actually, I just want to make that.

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Skomakar'n
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Post by Skomakar'n »

Nortaneous wrote:Danish is just insane.
wat

What's hard about Danish pronunciation?

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Post by Åge Kruger »

Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Danish is just insane.
wat

What's hard about Danish pronunciation?
He said the phonology is insane, not the pronunciation.
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Post by Qwynegold »

Tropylium wrote:N|u has consonants such as a palato-uvular affricate /cχ/, and contrasts velaric and uvularic clicks, but lacks a /t/ (no, it doesn't have a dental or ejective or aspirated one either).
First impression: the consonant charts just keep coming. Second impression: ejective clicks??
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Post by Skomakar'n »

Åge Kruger wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Danish is just insane.
wat

What's hard about Danish pronunciation?
He said the phonology is insane, not the pronunciation.
What about it is insane? ._.

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Post by Mbwa »

I'm guessing all those vowels is probably the main reason he wrote it. Not really that weird to us, but look at it cross-linguistically.

Also, I will try to contribute a weird language once I find one.
p_>-ts_>k_>-k_>k_>-pSSSSS

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Post by Nortaneous »

Skomakar'n wrote:
Åge Kruger wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Danish is just insane.
wat

What's hard about Danish pronunciation?
He said the phonology is insane, not the pronunciation.
What about it is insane? ._.
73478265457 vowels, pharyngealization as accent, syllabic /D/, full or near-full set of diphthongs with /@_^/ (which isn't that weird for europe but damn skippy it is overall)
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Post by Skomakar'n »

Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Åge Kruger wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Danish is just insane.
wat

What's hard about Danish pronunciation?
He said the phonology is insane, not the pronunciation.
What about it is insane? ._.
73478265457 vowels, pharyngealization as accent, syllabic /D/, full or near-full set of diphthongs with /@_^/ (which isn't that weird for europe but damn skippy it is overall)
I don't see the weirdness, but that may be because I live pretty close and know the language.

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Post by Qwynegold »

Tropylium wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:Also: "Some Finnish speakers find it hard to pronounce both 'b' and 'p' in foreign words (e.g. pubi), so they voice (bubi) or devoice (pupi) the entire word." (from Wikipedia)
Ah yep. It gets even worse with more complicated loanwords. "Anegdotes" are commonplace, "gebards" are known for their greit speed, "gebab" is occasionally served, a "pekonia" (funny since it's also the partitiv of "bacon") may be grown on one's windowstill, and even the hypercorrect "Goga Gola" has been attested at least once. :mrgreen: One case has even made it into standard Finnish: "biisi" is a loan from "piece of music".

There's also the joke that in theology conferences, everyone in the audience must try to held back laughter whenever Finns have something to say on the topic of "baconism" ([peɪkənisəm]). But yeah, THIS may now be getting off topic.
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Post by Nortaneous »

Rotuman has massive amounts of grammatical metathesis and deletion, and some weird rules for handling vowel clusters. (/uO/ -> [wa], but /ua/ -> [wO]? the fuck?)
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Post by The Unseen »

Nortaneous wrote:Rotuman has massive amounts of grammatical metathesis and deletion, and some weird rules for handling vowel clusters. (/uO/ -> [wa], but /ua/ -> [wO]? the fuck?)
that looks pretty cool actually. There's stuff there that conlangers seem to like to do all the time with vowel combinations and what-not.
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Post by Skomakar'n »

Since you think Danish has a weird phonology, it would be interesting to see what you think of the way I pronounce my native tounge (Swedish). I think I have less vowels than Danish, though. I'll think about how I do pronounce things, and try to find out which sounds I use. I'll give you the phonology when I get home in a couple of hours.

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Post by Nortaneous »

Documenting your idiolect is a hell of a lot harder than you'd think. I've tried, and I always end up forgetting so much that the description is basically useless.
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Post by Skomakar'n »

Nortaneous wrote:Documenting your idiolect is a hell of a lot harder than you'd think. I've tried, and I always end up forgetting so much that the description is basically useless.
I'll still give it a try. It seems like a fun thing to do.
There are at least some things I believe are a bit peculiar, such as /u U U\ y Y 2 &/.

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Post by Mbwa »

Onondaga doesn't have one really strange feature, but it has a bunch of odd features combined that make it weird imo:

-no labials except /w/

-no voicing contrast on any phonemes, but the only affricate is /dZ/

-/i e { a o/ vowel system, with /e~ u~/. I'd definitely expect /o~/ instead of /u~/ because there is no /u/ and nasal vowels are susceptible to lowering.

-no /l/ or /r/ phonemes.
p_>-ts_>k_>-k_>k_>-pSSSSS

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Post by Skomakar'n »

I am going for the monophthongs at the moment. I have found these so far:

/a: A: A E: E i: I: I o: u: u ? U: U U\: y: Y: Y 2 &: &/

I'll state examples including all of these, composed in the following form:
Standard Swedish orthography - /Standard Swedish pronunciation/ - [my pronunciation] - preferred orthography for me - English translation

galen - /'gA:l@n/ - ['ga:l`In] - galen - crazy
tala - /'tA:la/ - ['tA:l`A] - tala - speak
kall - /kal:/ - [kAl`Ir] - kalder - cold
här - /h{:r/ - [hE:r] - her - here/army
älska - /Elska/ - [El`skA] - elska - to love
i - /i:/ - [i:] - i/í - in
veta - /'ve:ta/ - ['vI:tA] - vita - to wit
sitta - /'sIt:a/ - ['sIt:Sa] - sitja - to sit
någon - /'no:gOn/ - ['no:kYn] - nokun -some/someone
bok - /bu:k/ - ['bu:k] - bok/bók - book
trodde - /'trud:@/ - ['tru?I] - thought/believed
bord - /bu:d`/ - [bU:r] - bord/borð - table/board
kort - /kUt`/ - [kUt`] - kort - card
ko - /ku:/ - [kU\:] - ku/kú - cow
fryser - /fry:s@r/ - [fry:s] - frys/frýs - I freeze
runa - /'rU\:na/ - ['RY:nA] - runa - rune
upp - /U\p:/ - [Yp:] or [Y:p:] - upp - up
börja - /'b2r:ja/ - ['b2r:jA] - byrja - to begin
såg - /so:g/ - [s&:g] - søg - a saw
snön - /sn2n:/ - [sJ&n] - snjø(e)n - the snow

I need help with a particular symbol. Both IPA and X-SAMPA. I often realise /s/ as some kind of mix between [s] and [S]. Like a very weak [S]... Do you know what I mean? In the example with <sitja> up there, it's really supposed to be that symbol and not /S/. Actually goes for the initial /s/ as well, and the final /s/ in <frys> and probably a lot of the others.
Last edited by Skomakar'n on Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Nortaneous »

There's a lot of weirdness in that area, apparently.

Choctaw only has voice distinctions in /p/ and /l/.
Omaha-Ponca has a velarized lateral approximant with interdental release.
Mohawk has a vowel system of /a e o i @~ u~/.
Lakota has aspirates with velar frication, which only contrast with normal affricates before /e/, and an ejective uvular fricative.
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Post by Tiamat »

Mbwa wrote:
-no labials except /w/
It has /w/ under the velar POA so I think it's suppose to be /M\/ and not /w/.



Chiricahua has no /w j r l/ but instead has 10 fricatives.
Last edited by Tiamat on Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Nortaneous »

Skomakar'n wrote:såg - /so:g/ - [s&:g] - søg - a saw
snön - /sn2n:/ - [sJ&n] - snjø(e)n - the snow
holy shit, you have [&]? I always figured that didn't really show up in natlangs for whatever reason
I need help with a particular symbol. Both IPA and X-SAMPA. I often realise /s/ as some kind of mix between [s] and [S]. Like a very weak [S]... Do you know what I mean? In the example with <sitja> up there, it's really supposed to be that symbol and not /S/. Actually goes for the initial /s/ as well, and the final /s/ in <frys> and probably a lot of the others.
[s_j]? or maybe it's just laminal: [s_m]

anyway where the fuck did all those [l`] come from?
Vortex wrote:
Mbwa wrote:
-no labials except /w/
It has /w/ under the velar POA so I think it's suppose to be /M\/ and not /w/.
nah, /w/ gets listed under the velar POA all the time
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Post by Colzie »

Nortaneous wrote:
Vortex wrote:
Mbwa wrote:
-no labials except /w/
It has /w/ under the velar POA so I think it's suppose to be /M\/ and not /w/.
nah, /w/ gets listed under the velar POA all the time
True...also /ɰ/ without /w/ is incredibly weird. Other than the vowels though this doesn't look strange to me.
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Post by Tiamat »

Nortaneous wrote:
Vortex wrote:
Mbwa wrote:
-no labials except /w/
It has /w/ under the velar POA so I think it's suppose to be /M\/ and not /w/.
nah, /w/ gets listed under the velar POA all the time
I'm inclined to believe it's /M\/ since other native american languages in the area have /M\/ instead /w/ even with having the bilabial POV.

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Post by Nortaneous »

Colzie wrote:True...also /ɰ/ without /w/ is incredibly weird.
Not really.
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Post by Skomakar'n »

Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:såg - /so:g/ - [s&:g] - søg - a saw
snön - /sn2n:/ - [sJ&n] - snjø(e)n - the snow
holy shit, you have [&]? I always figured that didn't really show up in natlangs for whatever reason
Unless this symbol doesn't represent the sound I think it does, I do. I'll record it later.
Nortaneous wrote:
I need help with a particular symbol. Both IPA and X-SAMPA. I often realise /s/ as some kind of mix between [s] and [S]. Like a very weak [S]... Do you know what I mean? In the example with <sitja> up there, it's really supposed to be that symbol and not /S/. Actually goes for the initial /s/ as well, and the final /s/ in <frys> and probably a lot of the others.
[s_j]? or maybe it's just laminal: [s_m]
What about IPA?
Nortaneous wrote:anyway where the fuck did all those [l`] come from?
As far as I know, not one single l coming out of my mouth isn't retroflex. I am pretty sure they all are.

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Post by Nortaneous »

Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:såg - /so:g/ - [s&:g] - søg - a saw
snön - /sn2n:/ - [sJ&n] - snjø(e)n - the snow
holy shit, you have [&]? I always figured that didn't really show up in natlangs for whatever reason
Unless this symbol doesn't represent the sound I think it does, I do. I'll record it later.
It's a low front rounded vowel. (rounded /a/)
Nortaneous wrote:
I need help with a particular symbol. Both IPA and X-SAMPA. I often realise /s/ as some kind of mix between [s] and [S]. Like a very weak [S]... Do you know what I mean? In the example with <sitja> up there, it's really supposed to be that symbol and not /S/. Actually goes for the initial /s/ as well, and the final /s/ in <frys> and probably a lot of the others.
[s_j]? or maybe it's just laminal: [s_m]
What about IPA?
http://conlanger.com/xipa.html (for some reason, this doesn't take <_j>; you have to use <'> instead, and yeah, that's valid X-SAMPA)

sʲ or s̻
Nortaneous wrote:anyway where the fuck did all those [l`] come from?
As far as I know, not one single l coming out of my mouth isn't retroflex. I am pretty sure they all are.
awesome
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Post by rickardspaghetti »

Nortaneous wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:anyway where the fuck did all those [l`] come from?
As far as I know, not one single l coming out of my mouth isn't retroflex. I am pretty sure they all are.
awesome
Skomakar'n, this is a speech impediment, not an idiolect. Visit a speech pedagog.
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