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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:55 pm 
Smeric
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Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
såg - /so:g/ - [s&:g] - søg - a saw
snön - /sn2n:/ - [sJ&n] - snjø(e)n - the snow

holy shit, you have [&]? I always figured that didn't really show up in natlangs for whatever reason

Unless this symbol doesn't represent the sound I think it does, I do. I'll record it later.

It's a low front rounded vowel. (rounded /a/)

I'm thinking of something /ø/-like.

rickardspaghetti wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Quote:
Nortaneous wrote:
anyway where the fuck did all those [l`] come from?

As far as I know, not one single l coming out of my mouth isn't retroflex. I am pretty sure they all are.

awesome

Skomakar'n, this is a speech impediment, not an idiolect. Visit a speech pedagog.

Don't come here and tell me you've never heard a Swedish/Norwegian dialect with only retroflex l.
I don't mean that I can't pronounce an l that isn't retroflex. I obviously don't speak English with them retroflex, and I don't imitate people from Stockholm with them retroflex, and I don't speak Icelandic with them retroflex, and so on.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:09 pm 
Lebom
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Mbwa wrote:
nasal vowels are susceptible to lowering.


Sez who?

Well yes, the French obviously do, but they've had quite a bit of other sound changes that aren't exactly universal as well. And AFAIK, it's quite common for languages to raise vowels before nasals - and a higher allophone before a nasal could easily turn into a higher nasal vowel.

Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
såg - /so:g/ - [s&:g] - søg - a saw
snön - /sn2n:/ - [sJ&n] - snjø(e)n - the snow

holy shit, you have [&]? I always figured that didn't really show up in natlangs for whatever reason

Unless this symbol doesn't represent the sound I think it does, I do. I'll record it later.

It's a low front rounded vowel. (rounded /a/)

I'm thinking of something /ø/-like.


I could imagine you having the rounded counterpart of [{]; at least that one occurs as an allophone of /2/ in F-Swedish. However, there's no X-SAMPA symbol specifically for that sound. The symbol /&/ may be used in phonemic analysis, since it's reasonably close - and no phonology will ever be crazy enough to contrast a truly open [&] with a near-open one. But if you want to transcribe the sound more precisely, you could use [&_r] or [9_o].

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:20 pm 
Lebom
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Xonen wrote:
Mbwa wrote:
nasal vowels are susceptible to lowering.


Sez who?


Lyle Campbell.

I wasn't saying they are extremely likely to, I was just saying [i~] > [e~] is a plausible change. I think I could come up with an example of a language with a roughly /a e i o u/ oral vowel system with roughly /e~ o~ a~/.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:26 am 
Lebom
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Can we just clear one thing up here and now: Skomaker'n doesn't speak like he claims to. The majority of his "oddities" are affectations.

That is all.

HAND.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:40 am 
Smeric
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Åge Kruger wrote:
Can we just clear one thing up here and now: Skomaker'n doesn't speak like he claims to. The majority of his "oddities" are affectations.

That is all.

HAND.

I've claimed to have a pronunciation different from the standard one. In Sweden, just about everybody does.
I've claimed to differentiate three genders. Still nothing uncommon at all in Sweden or Norway.
I have also claimed that I speak like I do partially because I want to. I don't say ulv or ramn because I've grown up hearing people say it, but because I want to. Because varg and korp are crap words to me.
I have dropped my /x\/ in favour of /S/ because I like it better that way. So has my aunt. My mother has change her dialect intentionally since she was young because she didn't like it. My father changed his dialect into a less archaic one when he became a teacher, but that dialect is still the basis of mine.
I meet a lot of people with very different dialects (or they speak Norwegian dialects) and I know and use related languages such as Norwegian and Icelandic a lot, and this has had big influence on me. I quickly got used to saying "ka?" instead of "va?", and I have said "ha?" all my life, because it's common here. Same for diphtongs. If I like these changes, I obviously allow them to come.

You are right, though. Very often, I don't speak like this, because I tend to adapt myself differently to different people. The better I know them, the less I adapt myself to them. This is definitely the way my girlfriend hears me speak. Something we both remember particularly well was when I said [Ej fry:s_j Ym tE:rA], which she seems to quote quite often, and her friends from Stockholm find it particularly fun to ask me things like "kvad tycker du om kvit kvispgrädde?", and obviously get a lot of their imitations wrong too.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:19 am 
Sumerul
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Tsakonian: /p/ palatalized to /c/ before a front vowel

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:33 am 
Smeric
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Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
såg - /so:g/ - [s&:g] - søg - a saw
snön - /sn2n:/ - [sJ&n] - snjø(e)n - the snow

holy shit, you have [&]? I always figured that didn't really show up in natlangs for whatever reason

Unless this symbol doesn't represent the sound I think it does, I do. I'll record it later.

It's a low front rounded vowel. (rounded /a/)

I'm thinking of something /ø/-like.

Maybe it's /9/?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:59 am 
Smeric
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Qwynegold wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
Nortaneous wrote:
Skomakar'n wrote:
såg - /so:g/ - [s&:g] - søg - a saw
snön - /sn2n:/ - [sJ&n] - snjø(e)n - the snow

holy shit, you have [&]? I always figured that didn't really show up in natlangs for whatever reason

Unless this symbol doesn't represent the sound I think it does, I do. I'll record it later.

It's a low front rounded vowel. (rounded /a/)

I'm thinking of something /ø/-like.

Maybe it's /9/?

Possibly.

I recorded it: http://host-a.net/Skomakarn/oe.mp3


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:19 pm 
Lebom
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Not to hijack this thread, but I'd love to hear a longer recording of you speaking in your full-blown idiolect, Skomakar'n. Your descriptions make it sound so much more Norwegian than Swedish, and I'm curious to find out how my brain will categorize it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:42 pm 
Smeric
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Magb wrote:
Not to hijack this thread, but I'd love to hear a longer recording of you speaking in your full-blown idiolect, Skomakar'n. Your descriptions make it sound so much more Norwegian than Swedish, and I'm curious to find out how my brain will categorize it.

I'll try to write a good example down, and then record it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 6:50 pm 
Lebom
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Åge Kruger wrote:
Can we just clear one thing up here and now: Skomaker'n doesn't speak like he claims to. The majority of his "oddities" are affectations.

That is all.

HAND.


Don't be such a square, my English dialect has biconsonantal roots and only 10 consonants.

Yes, it was a bad joke. I'll come across another weird phonology soon, don't have a cow.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:07 pm 
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Tanacross has "semi-voiced" fricatives? WTF is that?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:33 pm 
Sumerul
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rickardspaghetti wrote:
Tanacross has "semi-voiced" fricatives? WTF is that?

Damned if I know, but [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juǀʼhoan_language]Ju|'hoan[/url] has semi-voiced stops.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 7:46 pm 
Smeric
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Recording done.
Can be fetched here: http://host-a.net/Skomakarn/tt.zip

Contains two files:

Tgf.mp3 is the idiolect at it's full... uh... "power". The way I mostly talk to my girlfriend.
Ttr.mp3 is more adapted to other people, and it can get even closer to standard than this. Especially when talking to teachers or complete strangers.

Here is what I'm saying, in Standard Swedish orthography:

Hej. Jag heter Adam, och är svensk. Jag kommer från Göteborg, och där är det mycket vatten, för det ligger vid havet. Vad gott det är att bo vid havet. Man är ju alltid ren. Det är gott.

Meaning:

Hi. My name is Adam, and I am Swedish. I come from Gothenburg, and there is a lot of water there, because it is by the sea. It is so good to live by the sea. You are always clean. It is good.

Just some random crap, of course. I have not bathed in the sea in several years. Not since I was twelve or something, I think.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:11 pm 
Sumerul
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Tsou has batshit phonotactics and a phoneme that varies between /d_</ and /l/.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 6:11 pm 
Smeric
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Hän has ejectives, retroflexes, prenasalized consonants, and five interdentals. It has voicing distinction only in some nasals, fricatives and approximants, but not in plosives.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:40 pm 
Sumerul
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^ not that weird, if you group the unvoiced plosives with the voiced fricatives and the aspirated plosives with the voiced fricatives (eh) and group the affricates together with the plosives (pretty standard crosslinguistically)

that first grouping is pretty iffy though, since there are four phonations on plosives but a maximum of two on fricatives, and I wouldn't analyze it like that unless there's evidence from the grammar

it's still weird though, since it's a perfect example of most of the "if there's going to be a bit missing in the series, it's going to be this bit" rules - the most fortis bits are missing in the labials and the most lenis bits are missing in the velars, and there aren't any labial fricatives (although I'd be surprised if /w w_0/ are actually [w w_0] and not [B p\] or something). also, the /s` z` r\` r\`_0/ contrast is fucking insane, and there's that random /n_0/

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:32 pm 
Avisaru
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Qwynegold wrote:
Hän has ejectives, retroflexes, prenasalized consonants, and five interdentals. It has voicing distinction only in some nasals, fricatives and approximants, but not in plosives.
Pacific Northwest languages are just phonologically wonky. I mean EJECTIVE FRICATIVES? REALLY?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:39 pm 
Avisaru
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Isn't the thing with ejectives to pronounce a sound without any airflow? How can fricatives be articulated in this way?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:48 pm 
Sumerul
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rickardspaghetti wrote:
Isn't the thing with ejectives to pronounce a sound without any airflow? How can fricatives be articulated in this way?

By increasing air pressure through raising the glottis faster than air can escape through the space allowed by the tongue.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:49 pm 
Sumerul
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rickardspaghetti wrote:
Isn't the thing with ejectives to pronounce a sound without any airflow? How can fricatives be articulated in this way?

Not *no* airflow; I think there's some African language that does that, and whatever language that is needs to be in this thread but I can't remember what it is. Ejectives are glottal airflow. The tongue doesn't really have to do anything to make an ejective, so ejective fricatives are possible.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:14 am 
Sumerul
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Example of some fun historical development.

Also, some subdialects of Nias Seletan affricate and labiodentalize /t d/ before /u/: /adudu/ [adz_Pudz_Pu]. Labiodentalization there is more common than affrication. Some speakers apparently even have [pf bv] for those /t d/.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:34 pm 
Sumerul
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More Nias: /mb/ > /B\/. Also apparently their /u/ is something like [v\=].

Jalapa Mazatec distinguishes modal, creaky, and breathy voiced vowels, with a nasalization distinction on top of that. And it's tonal. And it has a length distinction, possibly three-way.
Ikwere has nonexplosive stops, which correspond to either implosives or labial-velars in other members of its language family. (edit: this is the lang that I was talking about two posts up)
One reported allophone of the Swedish sje-sound is a velarized dentolabial (lower teeth and upper lip) fricative.
Iwaidja has a palatal lateral flap.
Okanagan has an uvular flap for word-initial /?/.
Supyire has an uvular flap for /g/ in unstressed syllables.
I probably already posted Melpa, but it has a velar lateral flap as an allophone of /L\/.
Inor has contrastive labialization only on labials, velars besides /N/, and the glottal stop, and is thought to have developed nasal vowels through rhinoglottophilia.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:30 am 
Sanci
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Has http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_language been posted? Cause, damn.

I guess it's less weird than very large and pretty well filled out.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 13, 2010 9:26 am 
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Fur has [z] as an allophone of /j/


Last edited by Gaxa on Sun Feb 14, 2010 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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