Subjunctive

[vampireshark]

I have a stupid question that I should know the answer to, but I'll ask it anyways because the answer might be useful for reconstructing my one romlang.

In most Romance languages, there are two simple tenses in the subjunctive mood, usually a past and a non-past tense. Portuguese, on the other hand, has conserved the future subjunctive, so one effectively has past, present, and future subjunctive. How exactly did the other Romance languages lose the future subjunctive or, conversely, how did Portuguese acquire it?

[Ser]

Actually, Spanish still has it, but its usage is limited to things like countries' constitutions, legal agreements, and archaic-sounding mockery. (Just look up any verb at the RAE's site and you'll see its (modern) future subjunctive conjugations.)

According to Ralph Penny, its origin is a merge of the Latin indicative future and subjunctive perfect, which were replaced in turn by the Spanish indicative future perfect (habré hecho) and the subjunctive present perfect (haya hecho) compound verbs.

I remember reading somewhere that this was some Ibero-Romance development, as French doesn't seem to have ever had it.

[Twpsyn Pentref]

An almost completely uninformed glance at Portuguese verb tables leads me to remark off the cuff that the future subjunctive bears a striking resemblance to the Latin imperfect subjunctive. Also note that Latin didn't have a future subjunctive at all, so it indeed has to have been some kind of Romance innovation.

[Torco]

I use the subjunctive quite a bit... but I guess it's just because it makes me sound different.

to answer your question, it's like I'm pointing out the obvious, but one way is for people to stop using those tenses. In spanish, or at least in chileno spanish, all the past subjunctive are turning into archaisms. Many people just don't use them anymore, and there's even folk who have trouble understanding what you mean when you use them. People take different approaches at dropping the subjunctive, and while some just the present simple, others the past, and yet others the conditional, which, in many ideolects [such as my girlfriend and all her family], is simply an irrealis.

So
"si quisiera que el restaurante abra, abriría"
is being replaced with with
"si quiero que el restaurante abra, abre"
"si quería que el restaurante este abierto, lo abría"
? "si querría que el restaurante abriría, lo abriría" - this one feels ungrammatical to me, but not to others.

[Ser]

Are there any works you know on the loss of the subjunctive imperfect? In Salvadoran Spanish it's as strong as ever.

"si quiero que el restaurante abra, abre"
"si quería que el restaurante esté abierto, lo abría"
? "si querría que el restaurante abriría, lo abriría" - this one feels ungrammatical to me, but not to others.

The second sentence sounds ungrammatical to me as well. That "quería" is practically shouting to be changed to "quisiera".

[dunomapuka]

? "si querría que el restaurante abriría, lo abriría" - this one feels ungrammatical to me, but not to others.

Though it has an amusing parallel with something I've noticed in New York-area English (haven't noticed it elsewhere), which is that people are starting to say if I would want the restaurant to open, I'd open it - standard English requires "wanted," of course.

[Cedh]

? "si querría que el restaurante abriría, lo abriría" - this one feels ungrammatical to me, but not to others.

Though it has an amusing parallel with something I've noticed in New York-area English (haven't noticed it elsewhere), which is that people are starting to say if I would want the restaurant to open, I'd open it - standard English requires "wanted," of course.

FWIW, this is parallel to colloquial German: Wenn ich wollen würde, dass das Restaurant aufmacht, würde ich es aufmachen - the standard language has Wenn ich wollte.

[Torco]

Well, I guess the jump from subjunctive and conditional to irrealis isn't all that weird.

[gsandi]

I am studying (Brazilian) Portuguese right now, and the subjunctive is causing me quite a lot of headache, as often I just don't see why it is used at all.

The past subjunctive is the least problematic, because it seems to be used similarly to what I was taught in Spanish: Se tivesse dinheiro, compraria um carro = Se tuviera / tuviese dinero, compraria un coche. But how much this is actually used in real everyday speech, I don't know - I have the impression that the conditional is being replaced by the imperfect (in fact, I have read somewhere that in Portugal this is now the rule in the spoken language: *Se tivesse dinheiro, comprava un carro).

The present subjunctive is of course used heavily in Brazilian Portuguese for the imperative, since the tu forms have disappeared: cante 'sing!', falem 'speak [pl.]!'. It is also used in subordinate clauses (relating to the future at that), where I don't think Spanish uses the present subjunctive: Até que você me chame, fico em casa. Wouldn't this be in Spanish Hasta que me llamas, quedo en casa?.

But the future subjunctive is indeed the main problem, and it seems to be heavily used in some everyday constructions. For example with "when" in the future: Quando for ao Rio... (When I go to Rio), or in constructions like O último que sair deve apagar a luz (The last person to leave should switch the lights off). There is nothing like this in French or Spanish, I really have to learn the difference.

------------------

An interesting thing for a Hungarian is that Portuguese, like Hungarian, has a personal infinitive. In regular verbs in Portuguese it's identical to the future subjunctive, but in many irregular verbs it's not, seeing that it is derived from the actual infinitive and not the stem of the preterite. It is used in sentences like: É a hora de os alunos saírem (It's the time the students leave).

[Torco]

I am studying (Brazilian) Portuguese right now, and the subjunctive is causing me quite a lot of headache, as often I just don't see why it is used at all.

lots of spanishers feel that as well, which is why it's fading into archaicity.

[Ser]

Wouldn't this be in Spanish Hasta que me llamas, quedo en casa?.

Ungrammatical to me. I'd say "Hasta que me llames (thus using the subjunctive), me quedaré/quedo (both are possible, it depends on the context) en casa."

I am studying (Brazilian) Portuguese right now, and the subjunctive is causing me quite a lot of headache, as often I just don't see why it is used at all.

lots of spanishers feel that as well, which is why it's fading into archaicity.

Any references for this? I haven't been able to find anything on this fading of the subjunctive's uses.

[Lleu]

Wouldn't this be in Spanish Hasta que me llamas, quedo en casa?.

Ungrammatical to me. I'd say "Hasta que me llames (thus using the subjunctive), me quedaré/quedo (both are possible, it depends on the context) en casa."

Wouldn't it depend on how sure you are of the call coming? Although if you were 100% sure of the call, wouldn't it be hasta que me llamarás rather than llamas?

[Torco]

I'm sorry, I don't, actually. It's just my personal impression. I know that the future subjunctive is absolutely defunct outside legal and legaloid texts. At least in Chileno spanish I see that the past subjunctive is also going away. A google scholar search didn't turn up anything either.

I guess I could be mistaken... I'm going to check with some of my 'lang-savy acquaintances if they've also noticed this phenomenon.

---
"hasta que me llamarás" is ungrammatical. Since it's within a dependent clause. I don't know what the rule is, but I think verbs within dependent clauses must go in the subjunctive. It used to be "hasta que me llamares", but that's the archaic future subjunctive.

And no, it doesn't depend on your certainty. not always, anyway.

[tatapyranga]

I am studying (Brazilian) Portuguese right now, and the subjunctive is causing me quite a lot of headache, as often I just don't see why it is used at all.

The past subjunctive is the least problematic, because it seems to be used similarly to what I was taught in Spanish: Se tivesse dinheiro, compraria um carro = Se tuviera / tuviese dinero, compraria un coche. But how much this is actually used in real everyday speech, I don't know - I have the impression that the conditional is being replaced by the imperfect (in fact, I have read somewhere that in Portugal this is now the rule in the spoken language: *Se tivesse dinheiro, comprava un carro).

That's true, in colloquial language the conditional is often replaced, but it depends on the speaker. All subjunctive tenses are widely used though.

The present subjunctive is of course used heavily in Brazilian Portuguese for the imperative, since the tu forms have disappeared: cante 'sing!', falem 'speak [pl.]!'. It is also used in subordinate clauses (relating to the future at that), where I don't think Spanish uses the present subjunctive: Até que você me chame, fico em casa. Wouldn't this be in Spanish Hasta que me llamas, quedo en casa?.

Hmm, strictly speaking, imperative is distinct from present subjunctive, though imperative forms do come from it. Also, in colloquial speak the imperative is identical to the present indicative.
It is also used in nested clauses, where English would use an infinitive, like quero que você me ligue 'I want you to call me'.

But the future subjunctive is indeed the main problem, and it seems to be heavily used in some everyday constructions. For example with "when" in the future: Quando for ao Rio... (When I go to Rio), or in constructions like O último que sair deve apagar a luz (The last person to leave should switch the lights off). There is nothing like this in French or Spanish, I really have to learn the difference.

Yes it most often refers to a hypothetical in the future. But if you use the future of a past (as in indirect speech), you switch to the past subjunctive: Ele disse que o último que saísse deveria apagar a luz. 'He said the last person to leave should switch the lights off.'.

An interesting thing for a Hungarian is that Portuguese, like Hungarian, has a personal infinitive. In regular verbs in Portuguese it's identical to the future subjunctive, but in many irregular verbs it's not, seeing that it is derived from the actual infinitive and not the stem of the preterite. It is used in sentences like: É a hora de os alunos saírem (It's the time the students leave).

Ah, so Hungarian has that too? I didn't know.

[Yiuel Raumbesrairc]

As others have said, French does not have any future subjunctive. Indeed, when I first saw future subjunctive in Spanish, I went...

WTFC? (C=Câlisse)

Indeed, in all vernaculars of French that I know of, only the present subjunctive is still used (and its composed form, becoming a past tense, really a completed aspect however).

Il faut que je parte.
Il faut que je sois parti.

[Yng]

Apparently there's a certain group of extremely snooty people in Paris who use the imperfect subjunctive in speech and are widely mocked for it. This is second-hand information, though, and it does seem doubtful.

[vampireshark]

Actually, Spanish still has it, but its usage is limited to things like countries' constitutions, legal agreements, and archaic-sounding mockery. (Just look up any verb at the RAE's site and you'll see its (modern) future subjunctive conjugations.)

According to Ralph Penny, its origin is a merge of the Latin indicative future and subjunctive perfect, which were replaced in turn by the Spanish indicative future perfect (habré hecho) and the subjunctive present perfect (haya hecho) compound verbs.

I remember reading somewhere that this was some Ibero-Romance development, as French doesn't seem to have ever had it.

Okay, so the future subjunctive is an Iberian innovation... but, since it's present in those two languages, does it appear in any of the other Iberian Romance languages (Catalan, Asturian, etc.), or just Portuguese and Spanish?

lots of spanishers feel that as well, which is why it's fading into archaicity.

I know that the use of the subjunctive is/may be dwindling in French, but I don't know to what extent... it's probably, if anything, the future and imperfect subjunctives.

An interesting thing for a Hungarian is that Portuguese, like Hungarian, has a personal infinitive. In regular verbs in Portuguese it's identical to the future subjunctive, but in many irregular verbs it's not, seeing that it is derived from the actual infinitive and not the stem of the preterite.

Personal infinitive... interesting. I may need to introduce that into Telèmor...

As others have said, French does not have any future subjunctive. Indeed, when I first saw future subjunctive in Spanish, I went...

WTFC? (C=Câlisse)

Indeed, in all vernaculars of French that I know of, only the present subjunctive is still used (and its composed form, becoming a past tense, really a completed aspect however).

Yeah, I've only seen the imperfect subjunctive used in literature, and it's rare even there. Likewise with the passé simple.

And WTFC made my day.


Anyways, thanks for the answers... more conlanging shall commence.

[gsandi]

Wouldn't this be in Spanish Hasta que me llamas, quedo en casa?.

Ungrammatical to me. I'd say "Hasta que me llames (thus using the subjunctive), me quedaré/quedo (both are possible, it depends on the context) en casa."

Thanks. Yes, I asked a Spanish colleague, and she (of course) she said the same thing.

[Lleu]

"hasta que me llamarás" is ungrammatical. Since it's within a dependent clause. I don't know what the rule is, but I think verbs within dependent clauses must go in the subjunctive. It used to be "hasta que me llamares", but that's the archaic future subjunctive.

And no, it doesn't depend on your certainty. not always, anyway.

So it goes. I was definitely taught to use hasta that way, because I distinctly remember being shocked that French jusqu'à ce que always took the subjunctive.

And WTFC made my day.

Ditto.

[Ser]

Wouldn't this be in Spanish Hasta que me llamas, quedo en casa?.

Ungrammatical to me. I'd say "Hasta que me llames (thus using the subjunctive), me quedaré/quedo (both are possible, it depends on the context) en casa."

Giving it more thought, I think it is possible that "hasta que me llamas" is grammatical in some cases, but probably not most of the time. It would be if you were talking about in a general way, for example if you were describing what you do every morning or something.

Some cheesy example:

Antes de ir a clase, siempre te espero. Oh vamos... Me gusta saber cómo estás o qué hay contigo cada mañana. Generalmente me quedo en casa hasta que me llamas o vienes a primera hora.
Before going to class, I always wait for you. C'mon... I love knowing what's up with you every morning. I generally stay here until you call me or show up early in the morning.

I am studying (Brazilian) Portuguese right now, and the subjunctive is causing me quite a lot of headache, as often I just don't see why it is used at all.

lots of spanishers feel that as well, which is why it's fading into archaicity.

Any references for this? I haven't been able to find anything on this fading of the subjunctive's uses.[/quote](For anybody reading this, I did find some information about the decay in the use of the subjunctive in some regions later on.)

Okay, so the future subjunctive is an Iberian innovation... but, since it's present in those two languages, does it appear in any of the other Iberian Romance languages (Catalan, Asturian, etc.), or just Portuguese and Spanish?

Asking about this in another forum, it turns out it us used in Galician too, and, more interestingly, possibly Old Romanian.

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1849988

[Viktor77]

I use the subjunctive quite a bit... but I guess it's just because it makes me sound different.

I'm glad you do so. The subjunctive is a beautiful mood and adds a unique layer to text and speech. English has lost most of its subjunctive and when someone uses it, it just has this lovely je ne sais pas. Same in Spanish and French, especially in Spanish as the subjunctive is quite different in speech from the indicative and therefore quite noticeable in speech.'

Me quito un pesito de encima sabiendo que algunos hispanohablantes todavía usan el subjuntivo en el castellano moderno.

[Ser]

Me quito un pesito de encima sabiendo que algunos hispanohablantes todavía usan el subjuntivo en el castellano moderno.

No te preocupes, si todavía lo usamos mucho. Lo que dijo él es que simplemente está un poco en retroceso.

[Legion]

Italian and Occitan (and I think also Catalan) do not have a future subjunctive either; this tense is a specificity of "true" Iberian Romance languages.

[Yng]

I'm glad you do so. The subjunctive is a beautiful mood and adds a unique layer to text and speech. English has lost most of its subjunctive and when someone uses it, it just has this lovely je ne sais pas.

What? English hasn't 'lost most of its subjunctive'. Its past subjunctive has merged with the indicative past in form but not in meaning for 'to be' in a lot of dialects, and the present subjunctive has been replaced by the indicative after 'if', but English still has a wealth of subjunctive constructions.

[Legion]

I'm glad you do so. The subjunctive is a beautiful mood and adds a unique layer to text and speech. English has lost most of its subjunctive and when someone uses it, it just has this lovely je ne sais pas.

It's je ne sais quoi.