Help your fluency in a nifty way

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Imralu
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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kanejam wrote:That's actually very elegant - I'm very much liking the 'less nominal' uses of the noun class system.
Yeah, I get the impression, if Swahili hadn't had so much contact with other languages that introduced conjunctions and adverbs and things like that, it'd pretty much do everything with noun classes and verbal forms. Basically all of the prepositions come from the nominal morphology, even using noun classes with the genitive for things. As examples of conjunctions, Arabic has introduced ila "except" and kabla "before", but you can also say isipokuwa "if it is not" for the former, and for the latter, you can say things like nilipokuwa sijakula "when I had not yet eaten" or nikiwa sijakula "(with me) not having eaten" for "before I ate".
kanejam wrote:Yeah, I'm definitely beginning to see that relative clauses aren't nearly as simple as I first thought. I found this which is interesting but gives a decent glimpse into the complexity. I hadn't come across the relative copula so thought I'd stick to the safer but clunkier amba- RC.
Yeah, it is a bit more complex than it might look at first glance, but I still feel like it's easier than, say, Maori.
Looks like I just really need to sort out noun classes and not rely on my shoddy memory too much. I wish I had a house gazelle though...
Yeah, the good news is most noun-classes are obvious because of the prefixes. There are cases where a noun might look like it has a prefix but it's actually just the stem, like, apparently chapati, disappointingly, doesn't pluralise to vyapati ... it's class 9/10. Swahili seems to pretty freely put loanwords in the classes they look like. Kitabu is the classic example, pluralising to vitabu, but my favourites are:

kilabu "club" > vilabu "clubs" (or "vlub" :-D)
waya "wire, cable" > nyaya "wires, cables"

There are a few instances where a prefix may look like another, especially with m-, but that can mostly be resolved semantically.

People: class 1/2, eg. mtu/watu "person/people", mwana/wana "offspring", Mwafrika/Waafrika "African/s"
Animals: class 9/10, eg. mbwa/mbwa "dog/s", mbu/mbu "mosquito/s", mwewa/mwewa "hawk/s"
Plants and etc.: class 3/4, eg. mti/miti "tree/s", mwembe/miembe "mango tree", mpaka/mipaka "border/s", moyo/mioyo "heart/s"

The only exceptions I can think of to this are:
  • mnyama/wanyama "animal/s" ... literally kind of like "meat person"
    mdudu/wadudu "insect, arthropod"
    mjusi/mijusi "lizard/s"
    mungu/miungu "god/s, deity/deities"
The rest of the problems are when there's no apparent marker at all, and these can either belong to classes 5/6 or classes 9/10. Class 9/10 is much more numerous, containing more than half of the nouns of Swahili and the vast majority of loanwords are in this class, as well as most words for animals ... so I basically just try to remember if a noun is class 5/6 and store it in my head as an exception. In any case, because the majority of speakers are non-native, and there are also a lot of dialects among native speakers, there is quite a degree of flexibility and nouns will jump between these classes, especially animate ones which tend not to be used with concords that would give away their noun class. In Nairobi and other areas where non-native speakers are fluent, agreement tends to just be either animate (concords from classes 1/2) or inanimate (concords from classes 9/10) and ma-, the class 6 marker kind of gets thrown around to make something plural if it seems necessary. In standard Swahili, there are even funny mixed words like rafiki which can optionally take a ma- plural marker which doesn't affect any other part of syntax, and it continues to have it's funny blend of CL10 concords on genitive pronominal forms and CL2 everywhere else.

Anyway, if you had said paa ya nyumba, it would have been "wrong" but still definitely interpreted as "roof of the house" because that's inanimate. It was the animacy of the choice of CL1 wa rather than which decision was made between CL5 la and CL9 ya that made it really mean "duiker" ... and apparently duikers are antelopes but are NOT gazelles, which is a narrower group, so forget what I said about paa meaning "gazelle" ... gazelle is swala (or swara) and paa is "duiker" or a more generic word for any of the smaller antelopes. The word for impala is swala pala, and that pala is obviously cognate with paa and impala, but coming through a dialect or related language that didn't lose /l/ in that position. I think I want a digidigi wa nyumba ... a house dik-dik.
It was supposed to be the verb -ribishi with the compound tense -mesha-. It's probably still wrong with the applicative though. And -vuruga looks like it means the same thing so would also work.
I can't find -ribishi anywhere :-/ Where did you come across it?
Ah okay, that's not so much counterintuitive as just a trap for people who don't know it. I was going for 'daytime' rather than the 24 hour siku as you mention, so I'm happy with mchana. Also, seeing as they use the adjective (m)fupi, presumably -fupika is appropriate here. I will have to do some proper work to learn the verbs - so far I've just been guessing based on what I know already, and haven't looked at the stative forms at all, or the subjunctive, or the lesser used tenses... Verbs seem to be the real grammatical monsters here, they get more complicated each time I look at them :evil:
Yeah, there are a few of these little trip-ups in the vocabulary - words which are only singular or only plural or have an unexpected plural form for an underlying reason that's not obvious, eg. jina/majina "name/s", jicho/macho "eye/s", jino/meno "tooth/teeth". Aside from that and the recognition of noun classes that I talked about above, nouns are reasonably easy ... much easier than remembering gender, plural forms and declention in German nouns.

Yeah, the verbs are pretty complex, but, I don't know, I find it refreshingly simple compared to some other languages. The so-called "stative" verbs generally have a "k" in them. For example: nime(li)vunja dirisha "I broke the window", dirisha lilivunjika "the window broke", dirisha limevunjika "the window is/has broken". The subjunctive is easy: Nothing in the TAM slot, and change the final "a" if there is one to "e". If it's negative, you put -si- in the TAM slot. It's used a lot: ninataka u-end-e "I want you to go", ninataka u-si-end-e "I want you not to go". That subjunctive "e" is also used if an imperative has an object prefix (which results in slight ambiguity sometimes: nipende "love me" or "I should love/that I love"). It can also be combined with the consecutive -ka-, especially when linking two imperatives together, but also just to mean "so that ... then ..."

I glossed a story in Swahili on the CBB (which also has a video) and there's a lot of different verb tenses used (situational, consecutive, subjunctive) and things like that, so it might be interesting to you. http://aveneca.com/cbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6627
Sipendi michezo. Sipendi kushindana. Hata hivyo, ningeweza kula Ferrero Rocher kumi na sita haraka kuwashindeni.
I don't like games/sports. I don't like competing. I could eat 16 Ferreri Rochers faster than all of you though.
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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Imralu wrote:I could eat 16 Ferreri Rochers faster than all of you though.
Das betzweifele ich sehr :)
I doubt that very much :).


JAL

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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jal wrote:Das betzweifele ich sehr :)
I doubt that very much :).
Zorganizujmy zawody po jedzeniu Ferrero!
Let's have a Ferrero eating competition

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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Ein Freund von mir hat grade Rocher-Eis entdeckt. Er würde die Herausforderung gerne annehmen.
A friend of mine just discovered Rocher ice cream. He'd gladly accept your challenge.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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Ghafla napenda michezo.
I suddenly like games.

Aisikrimu ya Rocher!?!?!?!?! Nahitaji!
Rocher ice cream!?!?!?!?!?! I need!
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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Imralu wrote:Yeah, I get the impression, if Swahili hadn't had so much contact with other languages that introduced conjunctions and adverbs and things like that, it'd pretty much do everything with noun classes and verbal forms. Basically all of the prepositions come from the nominal morphology, even using noun classes with the genitive for things. As examples of conjunctions, Arabic has introduced ila "except" and kabla "before", but you can also say isipokuwa "if it is not" for the former, and for the latter, you can say things like nilipokuwa sijakula "when I had not yet eaten" or nikiwa sijakula "(with me) not having eaten" for "before I ate".
Veeery cool, and providing some great conlang inspiration - I'm now wondering which of my conlangs can afford to have their prepositions and conjunctions stripped right back.
Imralu wrote:kilabu "club" > vilabu "clubs" (or "vlub" :-D)
waya "wire, cable" > nyaya "wires, cables"
Thanks for the info on the noun classes. And these examples are great, especially vilabu! I'm not sure I'll be able to resist saying vyapati now :P
Imralu wrote:I can't find -ribishi anywhere :-/ Where did you come across it?
Sorry again - it was meant to be -rabishi which I found on Glosbe. I got that right originally, so assuming -rabishi is valid then the mistake I made was just making it an applicative.
Imralu wrote:Yeah, the verbs are pretty complex, but, I don't know, I find it refreshingly simple compared to some other languages. The so-called "stative" verbs generally have a "k" in them. For example: nime(li)vunja dirisha "I broke the window", dirisha lilivunjika "the window broke", dirisha limevunjika "the window is/has broken". The subjunctive is easy: Nothing in the TAM slot, and change the final "a" if there is one to "e". If it's negative, you put -si- in the TAM slot. It's used a lot: ninataka u-end-e "I want you to go", ninataka u-si-end-e "I want you not to go". That subjunctive "e" is also used if an imperative has an object prefix (which results in slight ambiguity sometimes: nipende "love me" or "I should love/that I love"). It can also be combined with the consecutive -ka-, especially when linking two imperatives together, but also just to mean "so that ... then ..."
Yup, there they go again. I hadn't previously encountered -ka- at all. I think it'll definitely be a while before I get a full handle on the verbs. So the subjunctive doesn't occur with other TAM markers at all other than -ka-?

I glossed a story in Swahili on the CBB (which also has a video) and there's a lot of different verb tenses used (situational, consecutive, subjunctive) and things like that, so it might be interesting to you. http://aveneca.com/cbb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=6627
Thanks for this! Very useful. Wow they speak quickly :o also I forgot to say in my last post but I would like to join that Discord server :)
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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kanejam wrote:
Imralu wrote:I can't find -ribishi anywhere :-/ Where did you come across it?
Sorry again - it was meant to be -rabishi which I found on Glosbe. I got that right originally, so assuming -rabishi is valid then the mistake I made was just making it an applicative.
It's not in a lot of dictionaries and I can't find examples of it when I google, so it looks pretty rare. It also looks like it came from English "rubbish".
kanejam wrote: Yup, there they go again. I hadn't previously encountered -ka- at all. I think it'll definitely be a while before I get a full handle on the verbs. So the subjunctive doesn't occur with other TAM markers at all other than -ka-?
Correct. -Ka- (consecutive) and -si- (negative) are the only things that can go in the TAM slot with the subjunctive -e on the end. For loan-verbs that don't end in -a, there is no change to -e but the rest of the structure is the same, so the subjunctive can usually be recognised by the absence of a TAM marker or negation with -si-. Using -ka- with these verbs obscures which one is meant.
Jana mfanyakazi mwenzangu alitokea kazini akiwa amejikwa akitembelea akavunjika mkono. Kwa bahati nzuri pana hospitali upande ule mwingine wa barabara. Kisha niliporudi nyumbani, mtu anayeishi naye kwa muda mfupi tu aliniambia kwamba ameng'amua kwamba mpenzi wake amemtomba watu wengine wawili. Alikuwa amenunua chupa ya divai na kwa kuwa mimi sinywi pombe, aliinywa yote peke yake. Tulizungumza. Alilia. Tukacheza ngoma jikoni.
Yesterday, a colleague of mine turned up at work having tripped over while walking and broken her arm. Luckily, there's a hospital across the road. Then when I was going back home, my temporary flatmate told me that she had found out that her boyfriend had slept with two other people. She had bought a bottle of wine and because I don't drink alcohol, she drank it all by herself. We talked. She cried. Then we danced in the kitchen.
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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kanejam wrote:
Qwynegold wrote:ところで、カネジャムさんはアガリオをする?
Tokoro de, Kanejamu-san wa Agario wo suru?
Btw, do you play agar.io Kanejam?
Ee, hapana... Nilicheza hiyo nyakati chache mwaka jana, lakini sikupenda sana matangazo yote ya programu ya simu. Kwa nini unauliza?
Um, no... I played a few times last year, but I really didn't like all the ads on the mobile app. Why do you ask?
最近アガリオでその名前を見たような気がしたんだ。 :? 気のせいかな。
Saikin Agario de sono namae wo mita yōna ki ga shitan da. :? Ki no sei ka na.
Because I thought I had recently seen that name in Agar.io. :? Did I just imagine it?
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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linguoboy wrote:Rocher ice cream
うそ!
Uso!
Whaaat?!
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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Qwynegold wrote:最近アガリオでその名前を見たような気がしたんだ。 :? 気のせいかな。
Saikin Agario de sono namae wo mita yōna ki ga shitan da. :? Ki no sei ka na.
Because I thought I had recently seen that name in Agar.io. :? Did I just imagine it?
Huenda - au huenda hiyo ni mwigaji! Hata hivyo, sijui kwa nini mtu atake kuniiga...
Maybe - or maybe it was an imposter! Although, I don't know why anyone would want to impersonate me...
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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あっ、ちょっと待って。カネジャムじゃなくて、シカジャムだよ!ちなみに「シカ」はフィンランド語でブタという意味だよ。そして英語のジャム…
Ah, chotto matte. Kanejamu ja nakute, Shikajamu da yo! Chinami ni "shika" wa Finrando-go de buta to iu imi da yo. Soshite eigo no jamu...
Ah, wait a minute. It wasn't Kanejam, it was Sikajam! Incidentally, "sika" means swine in Finnish. And then we have English jam...
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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Jisho wrote:締め

Noun
1. tie up; bind; fastening; tightening​
2. sum; total amount; total​
3. judo choking (strangling) techniques​
4. last meal eaten when going restaurant hopping​
5. completion; conclusion; rounding off​
Counter
6. counter for bundles; counter for faggots; counter for bundles of 2000 sheets of paper​
Noun
7. end mark; closure mark​
ヘヘ。こちら何締いるだろうなあ。
Hehe. Kochira nanshime iru darō naa.
Hehe. I wonder how many bundles there are here.
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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Últimamente he sufrido de insomnio, que es uno de los problemas más frustrantes con que he tenido que lidiar. Nunca tenía dificultad para dormirme hasta este año. Soy de naturaleza una persona ansiosa, y parece que la ansiedad se está empeorando. Fui a la médica y recibí una receta para un fármaco tranquilizante, pero hasta ahora ha tenido el el efecto contrario, lo que explica por qué estoy escribiendo esto a las cuatro de la mañana. Por suerte no trabajo los viernes así que no tengo para qué levantarme temprano mañana, pero estoy esperando unas llamadas en materia de posibles puestos y no quiero decir algo tonto por estar cansado.
לאחרונה אני סובל מנידורי שינה, שזאת אחת מהבעיות הכי מציקות שאי פעם הייתי צריך להתמודד איתן. מעולם לא היה לי קשה להירדם עד השנה. מהטבע שלי אני בן אדם חרד, וכנראה שהחרדה שלי רק מחמירה. הלכתי לרופאה והיא נתנה לי מרשם עבור תרופה אנטי-חרדה אבל עד עכשיו היא גורמת לתוצאה ההפוכה, שזה מסביר למה אני כותב את זה בארבע בבוקר. מזל שאני לא עובד בימי שישי אז אין לי בשביל מה לקום מוקדם מחר, אבל אני מצפה לכמה טלפונים ביחס לעבודות אפשריות ואני לא רוצה להגיד משהו מטומטם בגלל שאני עייף מדי.
La’aḥaronä ani sovel mi-nidurei šenä, še-zot aḥat meha-be‘ayot hakhi metsiḳot še-ei pa‘am hayiti tsarikh lehitmoded itan. Me‘olam lo haya li ḳašë lehiradem ‘ad ha-šanä. Meha-ṭeva‘ šeli ani ben adam ḥared, ṿe-kanir’ë šeha-ḥaradä šeli raḳ maḥmirä. Halakhti la-rof’ä ṿe-hi natnä li miršam ‘avor trufä anṭi-ḥaradä aval ‘ad ‘akhšaıṿ hi goremet la-totsa’ä ha-hafukhä, še-zë masbir lamä ani kotev et zë be-arba‘ ba-boḳer. Mazal še-ani lo ‘oved bi-ymei šiši az ein li bišvil mä laḳum muḳdam maḥar, aval ani metsapë le-kamä ṭelefonim be-yaḥas le-‘avodot efšariyot ṿe-ani lo rotsë lehagid mašehu meṭumṭam biglal še-ani ‘ayef mi-day.

Lately I've been suffering from insomnia, which is one of the most frustrating problems that I've had to deal with. I never used to have trouble falling asleep until this year. I'm naturally an anxious person, and my anxiety seems to be worsening. I went to the doctor and got a prescription for an anti-anxiety drug but up to now it's had the opposite effect, which explains why I'm writing this at 4 am. Luckily I don't work on Fridays so I don't have anything to get up early for tomorrow, but I'm expecting a few calls about potential jobs and I don't want to say something stupid out of fatigue.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by finlay »

Qwynegold wrote:
Jisho wrote:締め

Noun
1. tie up; bind; fastening; tightening​
2. sum; total amount; total​
3. judo choking (strangling) techniques​
4. last meal eaten when going restaurant hopping​
5. completion; conclusion; rounding off​
Counter
6. counter for bundles; counter for faggots; counter for bundles of 2000 sheets of paper​
Noun
7. end mark; closure mark​
ヘヘ。こちら何締いるだろうなあ。
Hehe. Kochira nanshime iru darō naa.
Hehe. I wonder how many bundles there are here.
「御釜」何個、ということ? :|
Okama nanko, to yu koto?
Is this you making an oblique joke about the word "faggot"?

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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Ziz wrote:Lately I've been suffering from insomnia, which is one of the most frustrating problems that I've had to deal with. I never used to have trouble falling asleep until this year. I'm naturally an anxious person, and my anxiety seems to be worsening. I went to the doctor and got a prescription for an anti-anxiety drug but up to now it's had the opposite effect, which explains why I'm writing this at 4 am. Luckily I don't work on Fridays so I don't have anything to get up early for tomorrow, but I'm expecting a few calls about potential jobs and I don't want to say something stupid out of fatigue.
Nakutakia usingizi mwema! Hali ya wasiwasi ndiyo mbaya sana!
I wish you a good sleep! Anxiety is indeed very bad!

Hakuna kitu ninachotaka zaidi ya kuwa peke yangu chumbani mwangu tena. Rafiki yangu hana mahali pengine pa kulala na mimi ni mtu ninayehitaji kuwa peke yangu kwa mida mirefu. Usiku huu anakohoa sana.
There's nothing I want more than to be alone in my room again. My friend has no other place where she can sleep and I'm an introvert. She's coughing a lot tonight.

Finlay, sentensi hiyo ya Kijapani ni fupi sana!
Finlay, that sentence in Japanese is very short!
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by finlay »

言葉は一対一じゃないからさ
it's not word for word

(a more direct translation would be "u mean like __?")

首がまた痛いわ…そして頭も痛い。そんな地獄は終わらない感じがある
my neck still fucking hurts. and therefore my head hurts too. it's like this hell will never end

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

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finlay wrote:「御釜」何個、ということ? :|
Okama nanko, to yu koto?
Is this you making an oblique joke about the word "faggot"?
すみません。^ ^;
Sumimasen.
Sorry.
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Io »

what's "wala4" in Arabic?

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Vijay »

I think it's just walad (ولد), i.e. 'boy'.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Imralu »

Is it a mishearing/misspelling of this?
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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by hwhatting »

Dzisiaj mamy dzień cichy.
Aujourd'hui, c'est un jour tranquille.
Oggi è un giorno tranquillo.
Hoy está un día tranquillo.
Vandaag is een rustige dag.

It's a quiet day today.

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Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Yng »

Io wrote:what's "wala4" in Arabic?
pls to context eh
كان يا ما كان / يا صمت العشية / قمري هاجر في الصبح بعيدا / في العيون العسلية

tà yi póbo tsùtsùr ciivà dè!

short texts in Cuhbi

Risha Cuhbi grammar

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Imralu
Smeric
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Location: Berlin, Germany

Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Imralu »

Rafiki yangu bado anakaa chumbani mwangu. Leo rafiki yangu mmoja wa karibu kalewa na amekuwa akizungumza kuhusu kujiua. Nilimpigia simu tukaongea lakini simu zangu zilikatika na sasa siwezi kumpigia.

Jumatatu nilikuwa ndani ya ubani nikaona mwanaume mmoja aliyevutia sana. Alikuwa akiniangalia-angalia akitazama mwili wangu na hasa eneo langu la kaptura. Nilikuwa na hakiki kwamba alinitaka na tulitazamana usoni. Kisha nilifikiri kwamba labda ni mtego tu na alitaka kunipigapiga kwa sababu mimi ni shoga. Niliogopa mno nisimtabasamie ingawa nilitaka. Nilipotoka ubani, aliniinulia nyusi kana kwamba aliniuliza kama yeye pia atoke au asitoke. Sikuwa na ujasiri wa kufanya lolote. Nilipoenda zangu, nilipatwa na hali ya wasiwasi. Halafu nilipata ujumbe usio mzuri kutoka kwa rafiki wa rafiki yangu akisema kwamba hataki kutusaidia mimi wala rafiki yangu anayeishi pamoja nami. Ninatoka basi bila kujua nilikuwa wapi, nikaketi akaanza kulia.

English soon. Sleep now.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific
________
MY MUSIC

Ziz
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Posts: 274
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:05 pm
Location: Tel Aviv, Israel

Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Ziz »

Nach vier Monaten des Suchens, fange ich morgen mit meiner neuen Arbeit an. Ich bin glücklich, dass ich schließlich Gelt haben werde. Trotzdem muss ich noch ein Monat zu Hause bleiben, um das Haus zu hüten, während meine Familie im Ausland ist. Ich muss auch neue Kleidung kaufen, um besser bei der Arbeit zu aussehen.

Après quatre mois de recherche, mon nouveau boulot va commencer demain. Je serai content d'avoir de l'argent finalement, mais je devrai rester un autre mois chez mes parents pour surveiller la maison lorsqu'ils sont à l'étranger. En plus, je dois m'acheter des nouveaux vêtements pour me voir bien au travail.

Después de cuatro meses de búsqueda, mi nuevo empleo va a comenzar mañana. Estaré contento de tener dinero por fin, pero tendré que quedarme en casa un mes más para cuidar la casa mientras mi familia está al extranjero. Además tengo que comprar nueva ropa para verme bien en el trabajo.

After four months of searching, I start my new job tomorrow. I'm happy that I'll finally have money, but I'll have to stay at home another month to watch the house while my parents are abroad. I also have to buy new clothes to look nice at work.

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Buran
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Location: Vancouver, BC

Re: Help your fluency in a nifty way

Post by Buran »

我也现在很快乐因为我上个月开始学中文。我妈妈是香港人,可是不教了我说中文。我知道的生词不多,可是我的老师很好,所以我学习得很快。
Wǒ yě xiànzài hěn kuàilè yīnwèi wǒ shàng ge yuè kāishǐ xué Zhōngwén. Wǒ māma shì Xiānggǎng rén, kěshì bù jiāo le wǒ shuō Zhōngwén. Wǒ zhīdao de shēngći bù duō, kěshì wǒ de lǎoshī hěn hǎo, suǒyǐ wǒ xuéxí de hěn kuài.

I'm also very happy right now because last month I started learning Chinese. My mother is from Hong Kong but didn't teach me to speak Chinese. I don't know very many words, but I have a good teacher, so I'm learning quickly.

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