zompist bboard

I have a few questions:

1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?

2. It appears to me that /y/ does not occur as a final vowel - is this so, and why?

3. Does /n/ regularly disappear before /s/?

4. What are the sandhi rules (in phonological and spelling terms)? I know, for instance, that /np nk/ becomes [mp Nk], spelt /mp gk/. What about combinations such as /pm tm km pn tn kn/ etc.?

Zhen Lin wrote:2. It appears to me that /y/ does not occur as a final vowel - is this so, and why?

πολύ, δόρυ, ἄστυ

Zhen Lin wrote:1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?

Everywhere except after /e i r/.

Zhen Lin wrote:Does /n/ regularly disappear before /s/?

Yes, and I think it lengthens the preceding vowel.

Also, where did /b/ come from? (Other than 40-year-old porn addicts, we knew that.) My (very poor) understanding of Ancient Greek plosives (disregarding the various flavors of velar, they're not important for this) is:

PIE /p t k/>/p t k/
PIE /b d g/ >/b d g/
PIE /bh dh gh/ >/ph th kh/

but PIE was exceptionally rare in /b/, while it's quite common in Ancient Greek.

Daquarious P. McFizzle wrote:Also, where did /b/ come from? (Other than 40-year-old porn addicts, we knew that.)

Huh?!? Is that a weird reference to 4chan's /b/?!

A lot of /b/s in Greek came from mp > mb > b, but no idea about the word initial and others.

Io wrote:

Daquarious P. McFizzle wrote:Also, where did /b/ come from? (Other than 40-year-old porn addicts, we knew that.)

Huh?!? Is that a weird reference to 4chan's /b/?!

A lot of /b/s in Greek came from mp > mb > b, but no idea about the word initial and others.

That's Modern Greek. Daquarious asked about Ancient Greek.

Daquarious P. McFizzle wrote:Also, where did /b/ come from? (Other than 40-year-old porn addicts, we knew that.)

Aha! A long-standing mystery about PIE is solved! It was in front of us all the time - they didn't have 4chan back then!

Daquarious P. McFizzle wrote:My (very poor) understanding of Ancient Greek plosives (disregarding the various flavors of velar, they're not important for this) is:

PIE /p t k/>/p t k/
PIE /b d g/ >/b d g/
PIE /bh dh gh/ >/ph th kh/

but PIE was exceptionally rare in /b/, while it's quite common in Ancient Greek.

Well, /gw/ often became /b/, typically before /a/ and /o/.

bricka wrote:Well, /gw/ often became /b/, typically before /a/ and /o/.

Exactly. I don't think Greek did anything with /dw/ or /tw/ – since the /w/ was deleted – though IIRC these did become labial in Latin.

bricka wrote:

Zhen Lin wrote:1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?

Everywhere except after /e i r/.

That's what's said for /a:/, but it doesn't seem to be true for short /a/. For instance, why is it Artemis (cf Doric Artamis) and not **Ertemis? Why do we have catalysis and not **cetelysis?

(On another note, I looked up the same change in French, and apparently there it happens in stressed open syllables. But it's Ártemis, not **Artémis, so it's probably not the exact same change, unless some analogical reform was involved.)

Zhen Lin wrote:

bricka wrote:

Zhen Lin wrote:1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?

Everywhere except after /e i r/.

That's what's said for /a:/, but it doesn't seem to be true for short /a/. For instance, why is it Artemis (cf Doric Artamis) and not **Ertemis? Why do we have catalysis and not **cetelysis?

(On another note, I looked up the same change in French, and apparently there it happens in stressed open syllables. But it's Ártemis, not **Artémis, so it's probably not the exact same change, unless some analogical reform was involved.)

Actually, I thought that change happened only to /aː/ and not to /a/, though I might be wrong.

TheGoatMan wrote:

Zhen Lin wrote:

bricka wrote:

Zhen Lin wrote:1. It is mentioned that Attic/Ionic raised /a a:/ to /e E:/ - under what conditions?

Everywhere except after /e i r/.

That's what's said for /a:/, but it doesn't seem to be true for short /a/. For instance, why is it Artemis (cf Doric Artamis) and not **Ertemis? Why do we have catalysis and not **cetelysis?

(On another note, I looked up the same change in French, and apparently there it happens in stressed open syllables. But it's Ártemis, not **Artémis, so it's probably not the exact same change, unless some analogical reform was involved.)

Actually, I thought that change happened only to /aː/ and not to /a/, though I might be wrong.

You're quite right; I don't know about short /a/.

Perhaps it's sporadic. The only other example I've seen is hieros < PIE *ish₂ros. (I see the aspiration also jumped there...)

Zhen Lin wrote:Perhaps it's sporadic. The only other example I've seen is hieros < PIE *ish₂ros. (I see the aspiration also jumped there...)

That should be *ish1ros (according to Mallory/Adams). The aspiration is irregular.