The Innovative Usage Thread

[Buran]

I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.

[Frislander]

I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.

Same here, which I think reflects how the majority of British people say them.

[jal]

Good to hear my non-native instinct on this is correct :).


JAL

[Qxentio]

Something odd I noticed about my own speech recently is that I believe I pronounce /k/ as [k͡x] utterance-finally and word-initially before /ɹ/; the former seems to be somewhat inconsistent, but the latter seems to be more general.

I've noticed something similar in my own speech. I am no native speaker of English, nor does my native language have [k͡x] in its inventory. But my pronunciation of the word "cataclysmal" within a song somehow turned to [kæɾək͡xlɪzməl] or even [kæɾəXlɪzməl] with an uvular fricative. It feels completely unnatural to pronounce it any other way within the song; but when reading the lyrics I just pronounce it with a [k]. What is going on?

[Travis B.]

I also often pronounce /k/ as [kxʰ] before /l/ initially myself.

[Zaarin]

I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.

Same here.

I also often pronounce /k/ as [kxʰ] before /l/ initially myself.

On further consideration I think I do have to add /l/ to the list.

[linguoboy]

I use /ʒ/ in all of those.

Ditto. In fact, the versions with /ʃ/ sound overpronounced to me, on a par with /zg/ in disgusting.

[Sumelic]

Thanks for the responses. It's interesting to learn that some other people do this as well.

I use /ʒ/ in "convulsion" and "revision", but /ʃ/ in "propulsion" and "expulsion".

I wonder if it's related to word frequency. Did you mean to write"revision," or is that a typo for "revulsion"?

I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.

Same here, which I think reflects how the majority of British people say them.

Same here.

Do you three also use /ʃ/ in words spelled with -rsion such as version?

I use /ʒ/ in all of those.

Ditto. In fact, the versions with /ʃ/ sound overpronounced to me, on a par with /zg/ in disgusting.

I haven't heard /zg/ used in "disgusting." It's interesting that it sound overpronounced to you, since to me it looks like the result of voicing assimilation, and assimilation is often thought of as "lazy" or "sloppy" rather than over-articulated.

[Zaarin]

I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.

Same here, which I think reflects how the majority of British people say them.

Same here.

Do you three also use /ʃ/ in words spelled with -rsion such as version?.

No, I have /ʒ/ in version. I do have /ʃ/ in immersion, however.

[Buran]

I use /ʒ/ only intervocalically, e.g. in "explosion", "vision", "elision", but in "propulsion", "convulsion", etc. it's always /ʃ/.

Do you three also use /ʃ/ in words spelled with -rsion such as version?

Always /ʒ/.

[Salmoneus]

Do you three also use /ʃ/ in words spelled with -rsion such as version?

I'm not one of those three, but as a British person: it varies. Some words can only have /S/, like "immersion" or "torsion" - using /Z/ would sound completely wrong. Other words can be heard or even said with either: I would normally have /S/ in 'version' and 'recursion', but not always. To me, /Z/ in 'version' sounds like an American, but in 'recursion' it's maybe a bit more respectable. Of course, the twist here is that the contexts aren't non-intervocalic in SSBE.

There's also /Z/ that comes from softening of /dZ/, and that's never /S/. (lAdZEs or lAZEs, never lASEs). I was actually going to post about final softening of /dZ/, but now I can't think of the darned examples... oh, wait, yeah, am I the only one who has /rEfjuZ/ instead of /rEfjudZ/? Likewise in centrifuge, etc.

[Axiem]

Thanks for the responses. It's interesting to learn that some other people do this as well.

I use /ʒ/ in "convulsion" and "revision", but /ʃ/ in "propulsion" and "expulsion".

I wonder if it's related to word frequency. Did you mean to write"revision," or is that a typo for "revulsion"?

I did indeed intend to write "revision". It was intended for contrast, though I can see how the broken parallelism would be confusing.

[linguoboy]

oh, wait, yeah, am I the only one who has /rEfjuZ/ instead of /rEfjudZ/? Likewise in centrifuge, etc.

I think I have refu[ʤ]e but centrifu[ʒ]e. (Hard to be sure, since I hardly ever say the latter.)

[jal]

I was actually going to post about final softening of /dZ/, but now I can't think of the darned examples... oh, wait, yeah, am I the only one who has /rEfjuZ/ instead of /rEfjudZ/? Likewise in centrifuge, etc.

Centrifuge was borrowed late (according to etymonline late 19th century), and the French pronunciation is with /Z/. Perhaps refuge with /Z/ is contaminated by that?


JAL

[Zaarin]

oh, wait, yeah, am I the only one who has /rEfjuZ/ instead of /rEfjudZ/? Likewise in centrifuge, etc.

I think I have refu[ʤ]e but centrifu[ʒ]e. (Hard to be sure, since I hardly ever say the latter.)

For me, refuge varies between /ʤ~ʒ/, but centrifuge is always /ʒ/.

[Travis B.]

I have /dʒ/ in both refuge and centrifuge.

[linguoboy]

Today I heard someone say "a liquor" in reference to alcohol purchased from a shop. I'm not sure if this was abbreviated from "malt liquor" (which can be countable in the same way as "beer") or if it means a portion of any sort of alcohol.

[Viktor77]

Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.

Oh and just something really stupid. I've caught myself taking simple past forms of strong verbs and adding -en to make past participles. Thus dranken, tooken, and wroten. I doubt anyone else does this and I only seem to do it when I'm exhausted.

[Sumelic]

Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.

Oh and just something really stupid. I've caught myself taking simple past forms of strong verbs and adding -en to make past participles. Thus dranken, tooken, and wroten. I doubt anyone else does this and I only seem to do it when I'm exhausted.

"A Portuguese" sounds awkward but possible to me. Same for any other nationality ending in "-ese."

Native speakers sometimes say things like "boughten" or "broughten": i.e. adding "en" to past participles where it's not there in the standard language. I can't imagine myself saying "dranken" instead of "drunk(en)", "tooken" instead of "taken", or "wroten" instead of "written", though.

[Zaarin]

Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.

It sounds awkward but not explicitly incorrect to me. For me personally, words ending in -ese or -ish are either adjectives or collective nouns, while anthronyms ending in -(i)an are acceptable as count nouns. So "a German" or "a Peruvian," but not "a Portuguese" or "an English." Anomalous forms can go either way: "a Swiss" but not "a French." Some have easy workarounds: "a Frenchman" or "an Englishwoman." Words ending in -ese require periphrastic constructions: "a Portuguese person."

[Viktor77]

Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.

It sounds awkward but not explicitly incorrect to me. For me personally, words ending in -ese or -ish are either adjectives or collective nouns, while anthronyms ending in -(i)an are acceptable as count nouns. So "a German" or "a Peruvian," but not "a Portuguese" or "an English." Anomalous forms can go either way: "a Swiss" but not "a French." Some have easy workarounds: "a Frenchman" or "an Englishwoman." Words ending in -ese require periphrastic constructions: "a Portuguese person."

"A Swiss" sounds awkward to me.

Sumelic, those two forms sound like something I've heard before. I think I've done that before, too.

[linguoboy]

Can one really say 'a Portuguese?'

Depends. Are we talking about dogs?

In the movie Mystic Pizza, some characters used the backformed "Portuguee". It had much the same mildly derogatory connotation as "Chinee".

[finlay]

I think it's marginally OK but I usually correct my students when they say "a Japanese" – whether or not it's correct it sounds better to native speakers to say "a Japanese person".

(I usually don't bother teaching the collective noun "the Japanese", or "the Portuguese" until higher levels, incidentally)

[finlay]

Can one really say 'a Portuguese?' I heard it yesterday from a native speaker.

Oh and just something really stupid. I've caught myself taking simple past forms of strong verbs and adding -en to make past participles. Thus dranken, tooken, and wroten. I doubt anyone else does this and I only seem to do it when I'm exhausted.

Two points: native speakers also make mistakes and this sounds like you're just incoherent when tired. On the other hand, "tooken" is common in Scotland.

[jmcd]

Indeed, 'tooken' and variants such as 'taen' are used for the past participle in Scots. These variants and, more often, other similar variants such as 'tuikin' or 'taikin' were already common forms of the past participle of the verb 'tak' in Older Scots, (defined as Scots up until 1707).