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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:45 pm 
Sumerul
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For me have to is /ˈ(h)æftu/ [ˈ(h)ɛftʲʉ̯u(ː)]~/ˈ(h)æftə/ [ˈ(h)ɛftə(ː)], which contrasts with have two /ˈ(h)ævˈtu/ [ˈ(h)ɛːfˈtʲʰʉ̯u(ː)].

Had to does not have anything special going on with it, being /ˈ(h)ædtu/ [ˈ(h)ɛːtʲːʉ̯u(ː)]~/ˈ(h)ædtə/ [ˈ(h)ɛːtːə(ː)]. This contrasts with had two /ˈ(h)ædˈtu/ [ˈ(h)ɛːtʲˈtʲʰʉ̯u(ː)] only because of the stress difference and its effect on aspiration. Note that /dt/ is distinguished from /tt/ by a lack of preglottalization and a long preceding vowel.

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 6:57 am 
Boardlord
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Apologies if this has been posted before, but it's new to me. There's a site, n-gate.com, which provides an extremely snarky weekly digest of discussions at Hacker News. And they've come up with a hilarious metonymy: for "a <site> user" they just write "<site>".

n-gate wrote:
An internet claims they're "linking to" a lockpicking guide "for educational purposes", then proceeds to host the document in its entirety. Hackernews decides that locks aren't enough, and in fact walls aren't enough. Some Hackernews bikeshed OCR, document typesetting, and file formats. One Hackernews keeps getting his shit stolen at the gym. Hackernews advises him to use a better lock, don't use a better lock, carry a safe around, leave all his shit at home, hire a security guard, or leave all his shit in his car.


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 7:36 am 
Lebom
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What's "bikeshed"?


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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 9:40 am 
Smeric
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"discuss", I suppose.

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PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 12:05 pm 
Sanno
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Pole, the wrote:
"discuss", I suppose.

More specific than that: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bikeshed


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 6:13 pm 
Sumerul
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A West Virginian senator on CNN keeps saying "I take it serious" instead of using the adverb "seriously." Is this characteristic of Appalachian English?

He also just said "the goodest country in the world."

It's interesting listening to this guy.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 7:34 pm 
Smeric
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Viktor77 wrote:
A West Virginian senator on CNN keeps saying "I take it serious" instead of using the adverb "seriously." Is this characteristic of Appalachian English?

Not just Appalachian English; Southern accents in general, including the use of "good" where one would expect "well" (e.g., "Y'all done good" instead of "You did well"). Adjective-for-adverb substitution is a feature I've observed to stick around in Southern English even in registers that are otherwise closer to standard, however.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 8:50 pm 
Smeric
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It's also (afaict) becoming commonplace in England; I've noticed it in the speech of my younger brother and his friends.


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 9:14 pm 
Sanno
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Viktor77 wrote:
A West Virginian senator on CNN keeps saying "I take it serious" instead of using the adverb "seriously." Is this characteristic of Appalachian English?

I could probably find similar examples from my own casual speech.


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:09 pm 
Sumerul
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Adjective/adverb replacement is common in my own speech. I often catch myself saying 'good' for 'well' or 'bad' for 'badly.' But I don't think I've ever extended it to other adjectives such as 'serious.' Is there a limit to the replacement? Can it be done for long adverbs? For example, "He did it different than you'd think".*

*Ok, now I am really unsure that this is truly marked for me. While this sentence appears marked to me, I'd likely say "He made it separate from the others" where 'separate' replaces 'separately.'

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Last edited by Viktor77 on Mon May 22, 2017 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:11 pm 
Smeric
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Viktor77 wrote:
Is there a limit to the replacement?

Can't think of one
Quote:
Can it be done for long adverbs? For example, "He did it different than you'd think".*

Yep.


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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:15 pm 
Sumerul
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Did Old English take the adverb ending -līce from Old Norse? And now Modern English is dropping this Old Norse innovation?

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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 10:20 pm 
Smeric
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Nah, I think it just happened to be a development that was similar to Old Norse (although I'm no expert on the history of English).

As for why people would merge adverbs and adjectives, well, IIRC it's cross-linguistically more unusual for a language to have adverbs than to have adjectives (and more unusual to have those than just nouns and verbs).


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:02 am 
Sumerul
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Viktor77 wrote:
Did Old English take the adverb ending -līce from Old Norse?

Really Vik, sometimes you should just Google :).


JAL


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:27 am 
Sumerul
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jal wrote:
Viktor77 wrote:
Did Old English take the adverb ending -līce from Old Norse?

Really Vik, sometimes you should just Google :).


JAL


I did, actually. I didn't expect etymonline would have -ly in their database so it didn't occur to me to look there.

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:24 am 
Sumerul
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Viktor77 wrote:
I did, actually. I didn't expect etymonline would have -ly in their database so it didn't occur to me to look there.

Yeah, etymonline has common prefixes and suffixes as well. Quite handy!


JAL


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:50 am 
Sanno
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jal wrote:
Viktor77 wrote:
I did, actually. I didn't expect etymonline would have -ly in their database so it didn't occur to me to look there.

Yeah, etymonline has common prefixes and suffixes as well. Quite handy!

As does Wiktionary.

The development of adverbial marking in Germanic is interesting. There seems to be a certain correlation between loss of adjective inflection and the spread of explicitly adverbial suffixes. The latter were rare in Standard German until very recently, for instance.

Vijay wrote:
Viktor77 wrote:
Is there a limit to the replacement?

Can't think of one

There are fixed phrases or collocations where it would strike me as odd, to say the least.

To my surprise, though, "won it handy" (which I would consider one of these) gets more Ghits than "won it handily". So I may be in the minority here.

ETA: Is there anyone here who would accept "I speak English fluent"?


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:48 am 
Smeric
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Zaarin wrote:
Viktor77 wrote:
A West Virginian senator on CNN keeps saying "I take it serious" instead of using the adverb "seriously." Is this characteristic of Appalachian English?

Not just Appalachian English; Southern accents in general, including the use of "good" where one would expect "well" (e.g., "Y'all done good" instead of "You did well").

Heh, is Southern American basically becoming the Afrikaans of English?

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:22 pm 
Avisaru
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An English adverb that is identical in form to an adjective, rather than an adjective + the "ly" suffix, can be called a "flat" adverb. As others have mentioned, flat adverbs are common in speech, especially colloquial speech, in many areas and my understanding is that they've had some use continuously since before adverbs and adjectives were differentiated, so the existence of adverbs with this form is not exactly innovative. Some uses for some words are considered standard.

I don't know of any native-spoken variety of English where "ly" adverbs seem to be on a clear path to disappearing entirely. I don't think I've ever heard "it's entire different" for "it's entirely different," for example. I can't think of the exact conditions right now, but I think there's something like adverbs modifying predicative adjectives are unlikely to be able to be flat, while adverbs modifying verbs/verb phrases are more likely to be able to be flat. Certainly it depends in part on the specific word; "real" is usable as an adverb in any position ("it's real good" is certainly possible and common colloquially).


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:28 pm 
Sanno
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Sumelic wrote:
Certainly it depends in part on the specific word; "real" is usable as an adverb in any position ("it's real good" is certainly possible and common colloquially).

Not real.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:32 pm 
Avisaru
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Hmm, yeah, I guess "real" is actually pretty much restricted to modifying adjectives, like "very".


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 12:52 pm 
Sanno
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Sumelic wrote:
Hmm, yeah, I guess "real" is actually pretty much restricted to modifying adjectives, like "very".

On the other hand, "for real(s)" is ubiquitous.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 7:17 pm 
Smeric
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linguoboy wrote:
ETA: Is there anyone here who would accept "I speak English fluent"?

I could see a fellow South'ner saying that, but I imagine them putting "real" before "fluent." Maybe I could imagine them saying it without "real" if they were being indignant about it, like if they were getting defensive about their accent/dialect.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 9:39 pm 
Avisaru
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linguoboy wrote:
On the other hand, "for real(s)" is ubiquitous.


As is "for serious". Okay, maybe not ubiquitous, but still pretty common.


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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 6:00 pm 
Smeric
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linguoboy wrote:
Sumelic wrote:
Certainly it depends in part on the specific word; "real" is usable as an adverb in any position ("it's real good" is certainly possible and common colloquially).

Not real.

It feels real, though.

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