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What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:43 am
by alice
OK, I asked this long ago, but I'll ask it again because I've forgotten the answers, and I'd like more detail anyway:
To what extent do appendices C D E in the foreign translations of The Lord of the Rings use native (i.e. non-English) versions of the English-based names and pronunciation examples?
I ask because cursory glances at appendix E in the Czech and Italian editions revealed that the pronunciation guides use native examples, which is particularly noticeable with the vowels, but the Spanish edition rather lazily translates directly from the English with Spanish equivalents inserted in square brackets, with peculiar results. I also noticed that a few names of the months in Appendix C were translated into Italian, and the Spanish appendix D translated a few names, including Bolsón (IIRC) for "Baggins".
I find this sort of thing very interesting, and I'd be very grateful for as much information as possible, including for the three languages mentioned above, which I didn't investigate very thorougly at the time.
This is also a good point to mention that I saw, but didn't buy, a book in Spanish about "kwenya". (Why would it not be transcribed cueña, I wonder?)
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:10 am
by hwhatting
The German edition I have omits most of the appendices - it only has the story of Arwen and Aragorn. Well, it was a gift, and you know about gift horses... I later loaned an English language edition from a library and photocopied the appendices.
Doesn't answer your question, I know. Seems what I want to say is - one possibility is that they don't get translated at all.
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:40 am
by Qwynegold
Here's something from the Finnish version:
My translations are in (). Names that aren't quite prefect matches, or aren't completely translateable, I've marked with a *. Also, translations that didn't fit into the diagram I've marked with * followed by a number. These translations are found at the bottom of the list. For some of the names I translated, it's possible that they are the original names and they just happened to mean something in Finnish. But I translated them anything. There are some names that I didn't translate because they were completely untranslateable nonsensical "words".
Ah, the whole thing doesn't appear to fit width-wise. Just paste it all into Notepad or something that you've set to a monospaced font, to view it correctly.
Code: Select all
HOBITTILAN REPPULIT
(Baggins of Hobbitville)
Balbo Reppuli 1167
(derived from backpack)
-
Berylli Boffin
(beryl)
|
+----+--------------------+--------------------------------------------------------+------------------------------+---------------+
| | | | |
Mungo 1207-1300 Orvokki 1212 Ponto 1216-1311 Largo 1220-1312 Lilja 1220-1312
(mungoose) (viola) (lily)
- - - - -
Laura Tonkeli Fastolf Bolger Mimoosa Bans Tanta Piipari Togo Hyväkäs
| (*rummager, *digger) (mimosa) (*1) : (*2)
| | | :
+---------------+---------------+------------------+---------------------+ +-----------+ Fosco 1264-1360 [Several Hyväkäs]
| | | | | | | -
Bungo 1246-1326 Belba 1256-1356 Longo 1260-1350 Linda 1262-1350 Bingo 1264-1360 Roosa 1256 Polo Rubiini Bolger
(pink) (poor thing) (ruby)
- - - - - - | |
Belladonna Tuk Rudigar Bolger Camelia Säkinheimo Bodo Jalojalka Siikka Pönkeli Hildigrim Tuk | +-------------+-------------+
(belladonna) | (bag tribe) | (noble foot/leg) (*3) : +----------+ | | |
| | | | : | | Dora 1302-1406 Drogo Dudo
BILBO 1290 Otho Säkinheimo-Reppuli [Odo Jalojalka] Falco Pönkeli-Reppuli : Posco 1302 Prisca 1306 1308-1380 1311-
Repunpään Bilbo 1310-1412 1304-1405 1303-1399 : - - - 1409
(Bilbo of Backpack end) - | | : Gilli Ruskokutri Vilibald Bolger Esikko Rankkibuk |
Lobelia Piukkapaula | | : (*5) (firstborn) |
| (*4) [Olo] 1346-1435 Unikko 1344 : | | Tuhatkauno
| (*feeling) (poppy) : +------------+ FRODO 1368 1350
Lotho 1364-1419 | - : | | | (common
| Filibert Bolger : Ponto Porto Pioni 1350 daisy)
[Sancho 1390] ········· 1346 1348 (peony) -
: : | - Griffo [PEREGRIN MERIADOC] | Milo Onkaloinen Boffin
Angelica 1381 | (*6)
+-+------+--------+------------------+
| | | |
[Mosco 1387 Moro 1391 Myrtti 1393 Minto]
(yo) (myrtus communis) 1396
*1 Possibly from "tantta" - a heavy, middle-aged woman, unless this is the original name.
*2 Something like goody-two-shoes, I'm not sure what this name means.
*3 Possibly from "siika" - common whitefish.
*4 Person (usually woman) with a short fuse.
*5 Brownilocks (as opposed to Goldilocks).
*6 Full of cavities (not tooth cavities).
This took a lot of time. I'll do the rest later if you're interested.
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:03 pm
by vec
The Icelandic edition "translates" all the names in the book (Gandalf > Gandalfur, Bilbo > Bilbó, Frodo > Fróði, Gollum > Gollrir, Meriadoc > Kátur). However, most of the appendices were left out, unfortunately. In general, I find the Icelandic version to be slightly superior to Tolkien's original. (I expect bashing for saying this). The translation is excellent, probably the best example of an Icelandic translation from English ever. The only problem is, like I said, that most of the appendices were not, in fact, translated.
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:25 pm
by Furi Tsunori
There are a fwe Russian translations, e. g. the very first one was awful and the translator got bored in the middle and invented her own END! Lol.
I love the version of Kamenkovich&Karrik because the large appendix was buffed by the translators' appendix, revealing their thoughts about how should every name be translated (or transliterated, or else).
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:14 pm
by Izambri
The Catalan versions of
The Hobbit and
The Lord of the Rings were translated by Francesc Parcerisas, a translator and poet. The translation of LOTR was subsidized by the Generalitat de Catalunya (the Catalan government) due to its importance and quality, by the way. The whole translation is a superior exercise on Parcerisas' mastery of the Catalan language. And a worth reading.
Concerning The Hobbit
The first version of
The Hobbit (1983) was rather confusing, by the way:
1. Personal names aren't translated nor adapted to the Catalan orthography and stress rules:
Thorin Oakenshield, Bilbo Baggins, Gollum, Gandalf...
2. A few are half translated:
Vell Took...
3. Many placenames are translated:
Riu Corrent, la Muntanya, Glever Marcit, Sota-el-Turó...
4. But others aren't:
Mirkwood, Bag-End...
By the way, the title was translated from the beginning, as far as I know:
El Hòbbit o viatge d'anada i tornada. Later translations could have fixed those ambiguities, but I don't know.
Concerning The Lord of the Rings
In the Catalan version of the
Lord of the Rings (1988) the ambiguities are fixed:
1. All personal names from
The Hobbit are now translated and adapted:
Thorin Escut-de-Roure, Bilbo Saquet, Gòl·lum, Gàndalf...
2. So are the new ones:
Brandiboc, Samseny (Sam), Àragorn, Sàruman...
3. Including many Hobbit femenine names, which appear as English words of flowers on the original:
Rosa, Margarida, Primavera, Sàlvia, Prímula...
4. Most placenames are translated according to Tolkien's rules:
La Comarca, la Terra Mitjana, Brollgrís, Riudargent, la Torre Fosca...
5. Others are adapted:
Oròdruin, Rivendell, Brandivín, Sméagol, Gamgí, ròhirrim...
6. A few aren't:
Bree, Archet...
The title was translated too:
El Senyor dels Anells. The first versions only included the story, without the appendices. With Jackson's movies new editions were printed, this time with the appendices, which were translated in 2002 by Dolors Udina, who followed Parcerisas' decisions on translation and adaptation of names. So both story and appendices are consistent, fortunately.
Dolors Udina also translated
El Silmaríl·lion,
Contes inacabats de Númenor i la Terra Mitjana and
Els fills d'en Hurin.
Concerning the Appendices:
1. Appendix C translates and/or adapts all the names:
Fortinbràs, Pervinca, Ferumbràs, Lotho, Mosco, Hildigrim, Milo Caus, Hilda Serrafaixes...
2. Appendix D shows the names of months in the Hobbit calendar with a partial translation:
Postyule, Solmath, Rethe, Astron, Thrimidge, Antelithe, Dia de Mig Any (Sobrelithe), Postlithe, Wedmath, Halimath, Hiverncru, Blotmath, Anteyule. It shows the original Quenya and Sindarin names, and the regional variants of the Hobbit names of months too, all of them written in italics:
astar, loa, yávie, enderi, Nínui, Gwaeron, Thrimich, Blooting, Mede, Isilya, Aldëa... And the few English names in the original appear in Catalan in the translation, of course.
3. Appendix E is an exact copy of the original version but from a Catalan perspective; the additions by Dolors Udina are put between square brackets. So when it appears
English in the original we have
anglès [català] and
anglesos [catalans] in the Catalan version. Examples of more developed additions by the translator include, for example:
- G només té el so de g a give i get [per tant en català s'escriu seguida d'u]: guil 'estel', a Guíldor, Guílraen, Osguíliath.
Which translates as:
- G only has the sound of g in give and get [so in Catalan is written followed by u]: guil 'star', in Guíldor, Guílraen, Osguíliath.
The entry for
G is the only one in the whole Appendix E that has a noticeable addition by the translator. The reason: the original translator's (Francesc Parcerisas) decision, to write [ge] and [gi] respectively as
gue and
gui on Quenya and Sindarin names; this and the fact that the pronounciation of English consonants is well known by the readers, since English language is mandatory for Catalan students.
The rest of the appendix is like the original.
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:59 pm
by alice
Very interesting, Ivo's contribution especially - that's what I was looking for! Do the pronunciation guides use examples from the native language, or just stick to the English ones like the Spanish edition did?
And it's quite strange seeing such obviously English names like "Bolger" mixed in with Finnish!
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:24 pm
by Bristel
Wow, sounds like that should be my next foreign language purchase... the Catalan version of the Lord of the Rings...
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:58 pm
by Izambri
Nancy Blackett wrote:Very interesting, Ivo's contribution especially - that's what I was looking for! Do the pronunciation guides use examples from the native language, or just stick to the English ones like the Spanish edition did?
Hey, Ivo is another guy!!! XD No problem.
I had a mistake when talking about Appendices C, D and E: I split the information about Appendix D into D and E, so I forgot to write about Appendix E, which is about pronounciation. Now is fixed, and with that I answer your question!
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 5:06 pm
by Izambri
Bristel wrote:Wow, sounds like that should be my next foreign language purchase... the Catalan version of the Lord of the Rings...
In that case I suggest you the version with illustrations by Alan Lee, by Edicions Vicens Vives (1st edition, 2002. ISBN: 84-316-6868-7), which is the one with the Appendices. Earlier versions don't have them.
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:29 pm
by johanpeturdam
I don't remember exactly, what the Faroese translation has, since I don't have it with me, but here's what I remember:
Appendix C is adapted to Faroese, however, the letter C has been replaced with K even in Quenya and Sindarin. So names like Celeborn, Cirith Ungol and Caradhras are written as Keleborn, Kirith Ungol and Karadhras. I don't remember how CH is written, but since CH is fairly well known in the Faroese from German, it's possible CH has been retained, though KH is still possible. Quenya/Sindarin names of people and places are generally not changed, however: Gandalf -> Gandálvur (magic-elf), Elrond -> Álvrádni (elf-wise), Arwen -> Arven, Cirion -> Kirjón (pron. /tSir\jOun/), and a few others. Hobbit names and place names are usually either adapted (à la Bree -> Bri) or translated: Hobbit = hobbit, Hobbiton = Hobbabøur, Baggins = Pjøki, Bag End = Pjøkabøli (or Pjøkaból, I don't remember), Frodo = Fróði, Sam(wise) = Sam(vísi), Merry = Káti, Pippin = Pippingur, Rose = Rósa, Goldilocks = Gyllinihár etc. Since Rohan is based on Old English virtually everything here is translated into Faroese: Rohan -> Róhan, Théoden = Tjóðheðin, Éomér = Jómar, Éowyn = Ívunn.
Although front vowels palatalise K and G in Faroese, Quenya/Sindarin/Westron names are usually not transliterated, especially since Faroes doesn't have a way to orthographically negate palatalisation à la Ibero-Gallic gu, qu and East Romance gh, ch: Osgiliath, Keleborn, Kirith Ungol etc.
Appendix D was not translated at all.
Appendix E was shortened and things only relevant to English were left out. The translator cites the discussion of the plural form of dwarf, e.g. dwarfs vs. dwarves as an example.
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Thu Feb 10, 2011 10:16 am
by Qwynegold
Here's a little more about the Finnish edition.
Appendix D
1. Jälkijule (after-Jule)
2. Solmath
3. Rethe
4. Astron
5. Thrimidz
6. Etulith (front-Lith)
7. Takalith (back-Lith)
8. Wedmath
9. Halimath
10. Talvenfilth (winter's Filth)
11. Blotmath
12. Julenala (Jule's area, or during Jule if it was alla instead of ala)
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 10:09 am
by Qwynegold
If anyone cares anymore, this is my translation of the Finnish appendix E:
Westron, i.e. the Common Tongue, has been completely translated into Finnish. All Hobbit names and special words are supposed to be pronunced according to Finnish rules. (An exception is the sound marked with th, which appears in words like lith, mathom, thain. This can be pronunced the same as the sound found in words of the Elven Tongue [i.e. as in English thin], although a simple t-sound can't be considered an error.
[...]
CONSONANTS
C always has the value k: celeb "silver", is pronunced keleb.
CH marks the sound found in German ich. But word-finally, and before t it weakens to a h in Gondorian speech; in some words this has been taken into consideration: Rohan, rohirrim. (Imrahil is a Númenorian name.)
DH marks a voiced sound that is found in the English words these clothes. Usually it originates from/reverts to1 a d, as in galadh "tree" - cf. Q. alda; but sometimes it originates from the combination n + r such as in Caradhras, "Redhorn", which comes from the form caran-rass.
F marks an f, except word-finally when it denotes a v: Nindalf, Fladrif.
G always marks g.
H by itself, when no other consonants are attached to it, has the value h. In Quenya, the combination ht is pronunced as in German echt, acht: Telumehtar, "Orion". See also CH, DH, L, R, TH, W, Y.
I marks j word-initially before a vowel, but only in Sindarin; Ioreth, Iarwain. See Y.
K appears in names that are not of elven origin, and marks the same sound as c; therefore the kh in Grisnákh in the orch language or Adunakhor in Adûnaic (Númenorian) is pronunced the same as ch. About the dwarf language (Khuzdul), see below.
L marks l. The sound was somewhat palatalized between e or i or between consonants, and word-finally after e or i. When this sound is voiceless, it's marked with LH (in this case it usually originates from a word-initial sl-combination). In (Ancient) Quenia this is written hl, but during the Third Age it was usually pronunced like an l.
NG represent word-finally an ng-sound that appears in the words kengät2, sangen3. In Quenia the sound appears word-initially also, but then it has been transcribed to n (the name Noldo) according to the pronunciation of the Third Age. Word-internally also the g is pronunced.
PH marks the same sound as f. It has been used (a) when the f-sound is found word-finally: alph, "swan"; (b) when the f-sound joins into or originates from1 a p: i-Pheriannath, "halfling" (perian); (c) internally in certain words where it marks a double f (which originates from pp): Ephel, "the more outer fence"; and (d) in Adûnaic and Westron: Ar-Pharazôn (pharaz, "gold").
QU represents the combination of k + the halfvowel w and is pronunced as in English queen. The combination was extremely common in Quenya, even though it doesn't appear at all in Sindarin.
R is the same as a Finnish r. The orchs and some dwarfs are said to have a back- i.e. uvular r, which the eldar thought was tacky. RH marks a voiceless (which originates from an earlier sr). In Quenya it was written with hr. Cf. L.
S is always voiceless as in Finnish. SH appears in Westron, the dwarf language and the orch language and had the same value as in the Finnish š words šakki, šekki4.
TH means a voiceless sound that's marked with th in English thin, cloth. In Quenya this had changed to s in speech, even though it was still written differently: Q. Isil, S. Ithil, "moon".
TY marks a combination that was likely pronunced like tj in Finnish tjaa5. It originated usually from c or the combination t + y. The speakers of Westron usually replaced this with the tš-sound common in their language (English church). See Y: HY.
V means the same as Finnish v6, but the letter is not used word-finally. See F.
W marks the halfvowel w which appears in the English words we, well. HW is a voiceless w. This sound was not unusual word-initially in Quenya, although there appears to be no examples in this book. In the Quenya transcription both v and w has been used regardless of romanization, because both of these sounds are found in this language.7
Y appears in Quenya as a consonant, denoting j. In Sindarin y is a vowel. HY is to y, as what HW is to w and denotes the combination hj. The h in the combinations of eht, iht is the same sound in Quenya. Westron speakers replaced it with the š common in their language. Cf. TY above. HY originates usually from the combinations sy- and khy-; in Sindarin cognates the h, which has the same beginning, appear: Q. Hyarmen, south, S. Harad.
Note that a consonant written twice denotes a double consonant as in Finnish. In the end of polysyllabic words the second consonant was usually left out: Rohan originates from the form Rochann (archaic form Rochand).
[...]
Tell me if you want to hear about the vowels.
1The intended meaning is not really clear.
2Shoes.
3Verily.
4Chess, cheque. Note that [ʃ] is not native to Finnish.
5"Well..." This is a loan from Swedish, I'm not sure what the exact phonetic nature of this word is.
6[ʋ]
7This whole sentence makes as little sense to me as it does to you.
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:08 pm
by alice
Qwynegold wrote:Tell me if you want to hear about the vowels.
Go on then; it's interesting.
I've often wondered how many other languages completely rewrite the pronunciation guide in appendix E in their own terms, rather than merely copying Tolkien's examples. There's no need for a special note on G in many languages, for example.
Re: What do foreign editions of LotR do with the appendices?
Posted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 4:23 am
by Cathbad
I don't have any of the two Slovene translations to hand, but there's some differences between the two. The first one - done before all the LoTR-film hype, but considered by many to be cumbersome... but it was the one I read, in around 1999 or so - I found rather more effective: a lot of the names were translated, but in a very idiosyncratic manner (so using the Slovene term Grofija for "the Shire", etc.). The second one often went a bit too far, plus it changed many names established in the first translation (which had also been used in the only, earlier, translation of The Hobbit) - such as rendering "Shire" as Šajerska, which picks up on the phonetics of it and is a pun on Štajerska (Styria - as a Slovene region)... but I think it's entirely inappropriate and contrived.
As far as the appendices specifically are concerned, AFAICR the English terms were used, but with footnotes that explained how/why they made sense, etc. The pronunciation guide was naturally adapted to Slovene phonetics - our translators may be few in number and expensive, but at least they're trained well in linguistics.