Translations of "to be".

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Izambri »

Legion wrote:Spanish:
1) "El perro es un animal."
2) "El perro está en el jardín."
3) "Hay un perro en el jardín."
4) "Aquí es un perro."

1/2/3 contrastive, 4 uses a special structure but the same verb than 1.
Legion wrote:
4) is wrong, it should be estar: aquí está un perro, using the same verb as in 2).
That'll teach me to trust google translate even for basic sentences.
Both are wrong. The correct form is Aquí hay un perro. The verb is haber. So...

Spanish:
1) El perro es un animal "The dog is an animal". Verb: ser "to be".
2) El perro está en el jardín "The dog is in the garden". Verb: ser "to be".
3) Hay un perro en el jardín "There is a dog in the garden". Verb: haber "to have".
4) Aquí hay un perro "Here is a dog". Verb: haber "to have".

But: Aquí está el perro "Here is the dog". Verb: estar "to be".
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Izambri »

Catalan:
1) El gos és un animal "The dog is an animal". Verb: ésser "to be".
2) El gos és al jardí "The dog is in the garden". Verb: ésser "to be".
3) Hi ha un gos al jardí "There is a dog in the garden". Verb: haver "to have".
4) Aquí hi ha un gos "Here is a dog". Verb: haver "to have".

But: Aquí és el gos / Aquí està el gos / El gos és aquí "Here is the dog". Verb: ésser / estar "to be / to stay".
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Ser »

Izo wrote:
Legion wrote:Spanish:
1) "El perro es un animal."
2) "El perro está en el jardín."
3) "Hay un perro en el jardín."
4) "Aquí es un perro."

1/2/3 contrastive, 4 uses a special structure but the same verb than 1.
Legion wrote:
4) is wrong, it should be estar: aquí está un perro, using the same verb as in 2).
That'll teach me to trust google translate even for basic sentences.
Both are wrong. The correct form is Aquí hay un perro. The verb is haber. So...
Are you sure? Both aquí hay un perro (hadn't thought of that one) and aquí está un perro are grammatical to me. The first one is more of an affirmation that there is a dog, as in "there's a dog here! I can smell it!". The second one is just very much like aquí tienes un perro, something you could use to hand over the dog to another person, "here's a dog... here's another one... now take the last one".

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Izambri »

Serafín wrote:
Izo wrote:
Legion wrote:Spanish:
1) "El perro es un animal."
2) "El perro está en el jardín."
3) "Hay un perro en el jardín."
4) "Aquí es un perro."

1/2/3 contrastive, 4 uses a special structure but the same verb than 1.
Legion wrote:
4) is wrong, it should be estar: aquí está un perro, using the same verb as in 2).
That'll teach me to trust google translate even for basic sentences.
Both are wrong. The correct form is Aquí hay un perro. The verb is haber. So...
Are you sure? Both aquí hay un perro (hadn't thought of that one) and aquí está un perro are grammatical to me. The first one is more of an affirmation that there is a dog, as in "there's a dog here! I can smell it!". The second one is just very much like aquí tienes un perro, something you could use to hand over the dog to another person, "here's a dog... here's another one... now take the last one".
In the first case you mention I'm absolutely sure is Aquí hay un perro; it's the only thing I've heard in my life, even from Latin Americans. The second one would be Aquí está el perro. In this case estar is said because we speak about the dog "el perro" not a dog "un perro".
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Ser »

I still disagree that "aquí está un perro" is ungrammatical. Google it and you will find some instances ("58 300" on the surface initially, although it only shows me 26, even if rather repetitive from certain texts. Pragmatically speaking I suppose you don't present dogs as often on the Internet). Or Google "aquí está un", etc...

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Hakaku »

Be careful about using Google to count occurrences, cuz once you click the second page, it'll say 146,000 results. But if you click the fourth, it'll bring you back to the third, and say that only 27 occurrences were found. With the same method, Aquí hay un perro gives 15,700 results on the first page, 39,200 on the second, but only 82 on the ninth page. Be wary of such discrepancies.
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Ser »

It still shows some usage though. Yes I'm pretty aware of that. Moreover, at the wordreference forum, there was once a discussion on these results numbers that Google gives, and one member there who claimed to be an expert working with databases of this kind said it was impossible to obtain such numbers, say, above the billions in such a short time. He also said that apparently Google has always refused to clarify how the engine obtains these numbers. This discussion appeared after some discussion where a user said a particular way to express something was better because "it gets 350 million, while the other one 52 million results only".

In any case, how often does one present dogs on the internet? Even then, it seems to me the examples that appear are mostly quotes from books.

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Izambri »

Usage doesn't mean it's correct. Doing a quick search through Google myself I see that those who write aquí está un [noun] have other incorrections; many are copies of English syntax.

Don't get wrong, in a sentence like Aquí [exists] un perro we must use hay because we're speaking of a dog not the dog, as I said before. The use of haber here is impersonal. So we'll say Aquí hay un perro (perro is complement, not subject). If we know the dog we'll say Aquí está el perro. Note the difference, please.
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by merijn »

jal wrote:In Dutch:

1) Een hond is een dier / Honden zijn dieren (single + definite article sounds akward)
2) De hond is in de tuin (although instead of "is" a different verb could be used, or a progressive could be added: "de hond is in de tuin aan 't spelen")
3) Er staat/loopt/ligt een hond in de tuin (not possible to use "is" here)
4) Hier is een hond / hier heb ik/je een hond

So simple "is" is only used for the copula and possibly the substantive, the existential uses different verbs, and presentative has a special construction.


JAL
I do accept "Er is een hond in de tuin" though your sentence is much better.

++++++++

Since I did my MA thesis about Zulu, have been involved in a project about non-verbal predication, especially Bantu languages, and I am now in the process of writing an article with my MA thesis supervisor about subjects in non-verbal predication in Zulu, I think I can say a few things about Zulu. Just for the sake of brevity, I will limit myself to the 3rd person present tense indicative affirmative; in some cases things are much more different for other persons tenses moods and polarities.

1: "the dog is an animal"
a) with nominal predication: In this case there is a copular particle that cliticizes to the predicate NP, the form of this particle varies depending on noun class of the NP, whether the NP starts with a noun, a demonstrative or is just a pronoun, as well as register and dialect: in the sentence "the dog is an animal" it is yi- so the sentence translates as "inja yi-silwane"
b) with adjectival predication: there are 2 types of adjectives; one is called traditionally adjectives and the other is traditionally called relatives. Relatives are prefixed with subject agreement , which agrees in person and noun class and is the same as the subject agreement for verbs where it is also prefixing. "the dog is honest" is "inja i-qotho". Adjectives that are traditionally called adjectives have instead a special set of agreement markers, that agrees only in noun class, that prefixes to it so "the dog is beautiful" is "inja in-hle". The contrast is perhaps bigger if we replace inja, a noun class 9 word, with a noun class 1 word, say umfana "boy". The relative is "umfana u-qotho" the boy is honest, and the adjective construction is "umfana mu-hle" "the boy is beautiful".
2: "the dog is in the garden" Subject agreement is prefixed directly before the locative phrase or the prepositional phrase: "In the garden" is "(s)engandini", so the dog is in the garden is "inja i-sengandini". An example where the predicate is a prepositional phrase "with the cat" is "nekati" which is underlyingly na-ikati. "The dog is with the cat" is "inja inekati". Another meaning of "inja inekati" is "the dog has a cat". In many languages what we express with "have" is expressed without verbs.
3: "there is a dog in the garden" Here there are two ways: the first one is with kukhona: khona means "there" ku- in short, is the default 3rd person agreement, used amongst other things when the subject is indefinite. So "there is a dog in the garde" is "kukhona inja engadini". The second construction is with kuna. Ku- is the same one as we saw before, na- is also the same na that meant with and is also used for "have" so the best literal translation of kuna- is "it has" In this construction "there is a dog in the garden" is' "kunenja engadini"
4: "Here is a dog". For this construction Zulu uses a special set of ..well I don't know what they are but they are highly irregular. For noun class 9 it is "Nayi" so "here is a boy" is "Nayi inja". For comparison: with noun class 1 it is "Nangu umfana""here is a boy"

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by schwhatever »

And now for something completely different, Tamil, which is actually not really that different.

1. நாய் விலங்கு Naay vilangku - It's just the classic "(the) dog (is) (an/the) animal".
2. நாய் வீடுல இருக்குNaay viit'ula irukku - It's pretty straightforward: "dog house-LOC exists"
3. வீடுல நாய் இருக்கு Viit'ula naay irukku - This one isn't terribly distinguishable from the above, although it's somewhat closer to the example given here - "In the house, there's a dog". The only possible other translation has some circumlocution - நாய் இருக்கு, வீடுல (as in, "there is a dog, he is in the garden").
4. நாய் பார் Naay paar - This is where it gets tricky. At least in the dialect I studied, people seemed to only have idioms for this use of the copula, like this one that translates as "See/look at (this/the/a) dog". Unless the speaker actually wanted to suggest that the dog was literally in the vicinity rather than stressing the presence of a dog, in which case there's the more literal translation நாய் இங்க இருக்கு Naay ingka irukku.

Or, in tl;dr:
1. No verb
2. இரு, iru
3. இரு, iru
4. Various idioms or இரு, iru

NOTE: I am not a native speaker. This is (if not inaccurate) probably biased towards upper middle class Madurai-area dialects.
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by daan »

Portuguese is quite similar to Spanish, at first sight:

1) O cão é um animal.
2) O cão está no jardim.
3) Há um cão no jardim.
4) Aqui há um cão.

But that's merely accidental! The difference between ser and estar in Portuguese is not copula vs. substantive verb, like in Spanish, but between permanent and temporary situations. Thus:

1a) O cão está doente. The dog is ill
2a) O pavilhão é no jardim. The pavillion is in the garden

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Skomakar'n »

Swedish generally only uses the verb vara (to be) and sometimes finnas (to exist, for there to be [literally to be found]), and occasionally vara till or finnas till (both meaning to exist), but in locative senses, one will often alter between ligga (to lie), stå (to stand), and sitta (to sit).

1. The dog is an animal.
Hunden är ett djur.

2. The dog is in the garden.
Hunden är/står/ligger/sitter i gården.

The last three (står, ligger or sitter) would only be used if the dog was actually standing, lying or sitting, but the copula would be the most natural here.
In contrast, let us use some other, inanimate objects and other locations:

2.1. The book is in the bookshelf.
Boken står i [bok]hyllan.

Here, the book is standing in the bookshelf. This would be the most natural way to express it. However:

2.2. The book is on the table.
Boken ligger [upp] å bordet.

Now, the book is lying on the table, which is still more natural than using the copula.

2.3. The CD is in the record player.
Plattan sitter/ligger i spelaren.

The disc can be either sitting or lying in the record player.

3. There is a dog in the garden.
Det är en hund i gården/En hund är i gården.

This would still use the same construction as before, using the copula. Once again, the other three verbs previously used are fine too, but less natural here.
A common way to translate there is in other cases than this one, though, is using finnas:

3.1. There are apples, if you want to eat.
Det finns äpplen, om du vill äta.

In simple phrases, many ways can be used to form the sentence, depending on the context:

3.2. There is a God.
Gud är till/Gud finns/Gud finns till/Gud är.

The last one might not feel entirely natural to most people.

4. Here is a dog.
Här är en hund/Detta är en hund.

The first is the same as the English sentence, and the latter one more literally corresponds to This is a dog.
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by jal »

merijn wrote:I do accept "Er is een hond in de tuin" though your sentence is much better.
I'd be suprised if someone (not a child) would use it like that, but it isn't flat out wrong, I agree. It just sounds weird.
4: "Here is a dog". For this construction Zulu uses a special set of ..well I don't know
Google tells me they are called "locative demonstratives".


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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by merijn »

jal wrote:
4: "Here is a dog". For this construction Zulu uses a special set of ..well I don't know
Google tells me they are called "locative demonstratives".


JAL
Various grammars call them various things. My Zulu grammar, Zoeloe-Grammatika by B. I.C. van Eeden, written in Afrikaans calls them "demonstratief-adverbiale kopulatiewe".
My point is not that I don't know how to call them, but that I don't know what they are: Are they verbs? On one hand, like verbs, their main function is to serve as the predicate, but on the other hand they are unlike verbs in that they are only inflected in the present tense indicative 3rd person affirmative. Are they adverbs? Their meaning corresponds with an adverb used predicatively, but unlike adverbs they cannot be used as adjuncts, that is adverbally. I tried to see how people treated the French "voilá" in generative grammar, since that has a similar function, but I couldn't find anything.

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Pellonpekko »

Legion wrote:Languages frequently contrast 4 different forms where English use only "to be" (note: I know there are more contrasts possible than that but bear with me here).

1) Copula, linking a noun with another noun (or sometimes an adjective, depending on the language):
"The dog is an animal."

2) Substantive verb, linking the noun with an adverb or a prepositional phrase.
"The dog is in the garden."

3) Existential verb, impling the existence of the noun in some place:
"There is a dog in the garden."

4) Presentative verb, introducing the noun:
"Here is a dog."

So well now, let's see how other languages handle this, post examples in the natlangs you know.
Finnish use the same verb 'to be' for all of these, which is on in third person singular present indicative. Of course, in many cases it would be natural to tell what the dog is doing, instead, and have a similar locative attribute in the sentence to tell where the dog is. But since you asked for examples with 'to be', I will deliver.

1) Koira on eläin.
2) Koira on puutarhassa.
3) Puutarhassa on koira.
4) Tässä on koira.

Sentences two and three imply that the noun appearing later is newer information. In case two we might have talked about the dog already, and it could very well be ours. In three it could be a neighbor's dog we've never seen before which has suddenly decided to visit us.

Koira is the nominative singular of 'dog'. Puutarhassa is 'garden' in the inessive singular case.
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by jal »

merijn wrote:I don't know what they are: Are they verbs? (...) Are they adverbs?
They are "particles", that's the best lump-all category in existence :). That said, what did they historically derive from?


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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by merijn »

jal wrote:
merijn wrote:I don't know what they are: Are they verbs? (...) Are they adverbs?
They are "particles", that's the best lump-all category in existence :). That said, what did they historically derive from?


JAL
To me the historical derivation is not obvious, but my grammar book has some ideas. I don't know how correct these are, and how up to date (the book is from the 50's), but I will give them anyway.There are two things I need to mention before giving those ideas:
1) there are special forms for "here is", "there is", and "over there is". "Here is" is the morphologically the more basic one, and the way "there is" and "over there is" are derived from "here is" is similar to how "that" and "that one over there" are derived from "this"; replacing the last vowel by o for there (nangu=>nango) and suffixing it with -ya for "over there" (nangu=>nanguya). Here I will only discuss the "here is" pattern.
2. There are two patterns competing, an old one that is highly irregular but which seems to be originally nank+subject agreement, and a new one na + subject agreement, displacing the older pattern. Some noun classes follow the old pattern, some the new, and sometimes both are possible.

According to my grammar book the initial na- is probably a demonstrative, and possibly related to the -na morpheme that makes sure independent pronouns are disyllabic. An example is -ye- meaning him/her to him is ku-ye but him alone is ye-na. .
The second element in the old pattern is the copular particle which according to my grammar book is sometimes -ngu-, sometimes -nga- and sometimes -ni-.
The third element is the subject agreement, which (this is something my grammar book doesn't mention) is thought to be a pronoun in pre-proto-bantu times.
All in all, "nangu" would originally mean "this is him", if my grammar book is correct.

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Cathbad »

Slovene is terribly boring about it, with just a single copula biti (to be), which in the present singular becomes je:

1) Pes je žival. (although this sounds a bit... unnatural)
2) Pes je na vrtu.
3) Na vrtu je pes. (post-verbal position "focuses" the constituent, making up somewhat for the lack of definiteness marking)
4) Tu(kaj) je pes.

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by schwhatever »

Cathbad wrote:1) Pes je žival. (although this sounds a bit... unnatural)
Is there any way to phrase it that sounds more natural?
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Cathbad »

schwhatever wrote:
Cathbad wrote:1) Pes je žival. (although this sounds a bit... unnatural)
Is there any way to phrase it that sounds more natural?
To a large extent it's semantically motivated unease I think... why would you say a dog is an animal? It obviously is. Nevertheless, a bit more idiomatic in this case is Pes spada med živali, literally rendered as "The dog belongs among animals" - the construction is used to express that certain entities belong to certain classes.

However, if you add some sort of attributive, the copula construction is perfectly natural: Pes je glasna žival "the dog is a loud animal".

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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by jal »

Cathbad wrote:why would you say a dog is an animal
When discussing biology, or logic?


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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Arzena »

Legion wrote:Languages frequently contrast 4 different forms where English use only "to be" (note: I know there are more contrasts possible than that but bear with me here).

1) Copula, linking a noun with another noun (or sometimes an adjective, depending on the language):
"The dog is an animal."

2) Substantive verb, linking the noun with an adverb or a prepositional phrase.
"The dog is in the garden."

3) Existential verb, impling the existence of the noun in some place:
"There is a dog in the garden."

4) Presentative verb, introducing the noun:
"Here is a dog."

So well now, let's see how other languages handle this, post examples in the natlangs you know.
I'll attempt Modern Standard Arabic (someone correct me if you see errors):

1) Al kalb ħayawaan - zero copula

2) Al kalb fii-l ħadiiqa - zero copula

3) Fii/Hunaak kalb fi-l ħadiiqa - appropriation of a preposition fii, or the adverb hunaak

4) Huna kalb - zero copula

The negatives of these situations generally require the verb laysa, except 3) and 4) which I believe require the negative particle maa.

1) Al kalb laysa ħayawaan
2) Al kalb laysa fii-l ħadiiqa
3) Maa fii kalb fii-l ħadiiqa
4) Maa huna kalb
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Hakaku »

Okinawan is functionally similar to Japanese:

ʔinoo ʔitɕimuɕi yaɴ
dog=TOP animal COP
"Dogs are animals"

ʔinoo naaɴkai wuɴ
dog=TOP garden=LOC there_is
"The dog is in the garden"

naaɴkaiya ʔiɴ nu du wuɴ
garden=LOC=TOP dog NOM FOC there_is
"There is a dog in the garden"

kuree ʔiɴ yaɴ
this=TOP dog COP
"Here is a dog"

Essentially, yaɴ is used here to mark the attributive state of the topic, while wuɴ is used to mark the existance, the location of an animate topic (while aɴ is used for inanimates). The negative form of the verbs changes from yaɴ to araɴ, wuɴ to wuraɴ, and aɴ to neeraɴ or neeɴ.

In some dialects, ʔiɴɡʷaa 'dog' (topicalized ʔiɴɡʷaaya) may be preferable to ʔiɴ (ʔinoo). And if it wasn't clear, ‹y› represents /j/ and ‹ɴ› is typically /ŋ̍/ or /n̩/.
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Ser »

Izo wrote:Don't get wrong, in a sentence like Aquí [exists] un perro we must use hay because we're speaking of a dog not the dog, as I said before. The use of haber here is impersonal. So we'll say Aquí hay un perro (perro is complement, not subject). If we know the dog we'll say Aquí está el perro. Note the difference, please.
I just realized something, maybe it's just a simple dialectal difference?

I found this interestingly similar discussion at the WR forum, where a speaker from Mexico insists that estar + the indefinite article is alright, but the ones from Spain insist that it isn't. (LOL) I still insist that following it with either article is fine (at least IMD), and that there's a small difference in meaning/usage between them.

As an aside, this related discussion too, where the opposite is argued (haber + the definite article). This one does feel ungrammatical to me though.

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Izambri
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Re: Translations of "to be".

Post by Izambri »

Serafín wrote:
Izo wrote:Don't get wrong, in a sentence like Aquí [exists] un perro we must use hay because we're speaking of a dog not the dog, as I said before. The use of haber here is impersonal. So we'll say Aquí hay un perro (perro is complement, not subject). If we know the dog we'll say Aquí está el perro. Note the difference, please.
I just realized something, maybe it's just a simple dialectal difference?

I found this interestingly similar discussion at the WR forum, where a speaker from Mexico insists that estar + the indefinite article is alright, but the ones from Spain insist that it isn't. (LOL) I still insist that following it with either article is fine (at least IMD), and that there's a small difference in meaning/usage between them.

As an aside, this related discussion too, where the opposite is argued (haber + the definite article). This one does feel ungrammatical to me though.
What Mexican? The one who says that Allí hay un libro de inglés is «wrong»? What credibility I should expect from that guy after reading this?
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.

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