Middle High German, some help needed

[Anders]

I'm reading a Middle High German text but I have got stuck on a few things.

Can 'sîn' mean 'idea'?

What do you say about this try to translate:
hât ieman sîn iht mêr erdâht - has someone thought of some greater idea

How is z pronounced in words like 'daz', 'wizzet', 'ez'?

[Bristel]

I'm reading a Middle High German text but I have got stuck on a few things.

Can 'sîn' mean 'idea'?

What do you say about this try to translate:
hât ieman sîn iht mêr erdâht - has someone thought of some greater idea

How is z pronounced in words like 'daz', 'wizzet', 'ez'?

I think that sîn is "sein" in Modern High German.

I can't define "iht", is that "ihr"?

Erdâht is a verb, as far as I can tell, but I don't recognize it. Maybe erdâht is the verb "think"?

But that wouldn't match up with "denken"? **erdenkt?

The prefix er- literally means "to kill", and has the connotation of "complete successfully".

[Herra Ratatoskr]

As for z, according to Wright's MHG Primer (page 24), "z was a kind of lisped s ... It should be noted that good MHG poets never rhymed pairs of words like was, was, and waz, what; missen, to miss and wizzen, to know."

So, if I were to hazard a guess, it was a distinction between a dental(ish) and an alveolar sibilant. Probably similar to the distinction between basque <z> and <s> (lamino-dental and apico-alveolar respectively).

[Bristel]

Herra, if you can add some knowledge about "erdâht", that would be helpful... It's the only word I cannot rightly translate, although I suspect that it does mean "thought".

Edit: never mind, thank the below answer

[Cedh]

I can't define "iht", is that "ihr"?

It's the source of <et-> in modern etwas 'something' (and also of <-icht> in modern nicht 'not', lit. 'not anything' IIRC). It probably means something like 'something', too.

Erdâht is a verb, as far as I can tell, but I don't recognize it. Maybe erdâht is the verb "think"? But that wouldn't match up with "denken"? **erdenkt?

It's indeed from erdenken; the modern past participle form is erdacht. I'd translate it as 'thought up; conceived'.

What do you say about this try to translate:
hât ieman sîn iht mêr erdâht - has someone thought of some greater idea

My stab at it would be 'has anyone come up with something else?'
(native speaker of modern German, but no expert on MHG)

[Bristel]

Ahh, I wasn't thinking that it was "something" at all... thanks cedh!

I'm surprised that I got "erdâht" without finding even one "close" definition online...

[Herra Ratatoskr]

I was looking through the glossary for your lexical questions, but it seems Cedh beat me to it. Here's what I had anyway, for what it's worth:
The primer has "sin" listed in the glossary with the gloss "sense, mind, feeling; courage".
"Erdenken" also shows up with the gloss "think out, devise, contrive".
"Iht" is listed as "anything".

[Bristel]

It just makes me more fascinated with historical German, as I just discovered while researching "er-", to my surprise, that German is replete with verbal prefixes...

I may put tons of verbal prefixes in a daughter conlang sometime...

[Anders]

It should be noted that good MHG poets never rhymed pairs of words like was, was, and waz, what; missen, to miss and wizzen, to know."

Thanks for the information. My guy accually rhymes 'daz' with 'was' but maybe he wasn't a good poet, then.

[Anders]

My stab at it would be 'has anyone come up with something else?'

Tanks for your suggestion. A problem I see with it is that it leaves out 'sîn' and 'mêr' from the translation.

One dictonary says this about 'mêr':
mêr (BMZ II. 139b; ) apok. mê. —
1. adj. compar. zu vil, mit neuer steigerung mêrer, mêrre, mërre aus ahd. mêrôro sup. mêreste, mêrste der urspr. sup. lautet meist s. oben —: grösser, bedeutender ( nach raum, zal u. wert ) allgem.

That's why I suggested 'greater' as a translation for 'mêr'.

The same dictonary suggests 'Gedanke' as a translation for 'sin' (but not for 'sîn', if that matters).

'Gedanke' is close to 'idea' in their meanings. That's how I came up with my translation.

This is the dictionary I use http://www.mhdwb-online.de/index.html

[Cedh]

My stab at it would be 'has anyone come up with something else?'

A problem I see with it is that it leaves out 'sîn' and 'mêr' from the translation.

No it doesn't: I interpreted 'sîn' as a possessive pronoun (modern sein 'his'), and 'mêr' is the 'else' in my sentence. So a more literal rendering of that interpretation of 'hât ieman sîn iht mêr erdâht' would be 'has anyone his something more conceived?', i.e. 'has anyone come up with another thing of his?'.

That said, I didn't know that 'sin' can mean 'Gedanke'. Analysing the sentence as 'has anyone come up with a better/another idea' might make sense then. However, I'm not sure if the vowel length difference can be neglected, and since this is MHG and not OHG I'd also expect an article if 'sîn' is indeed a noun.

[Anders]

My stab at it would be 'has anyone come up with something else?'

A problem I see with it is that it leaves out 'sîn' and 'mêr' from the translation.

No it doesn't: I interpreted 'sîn' as a possessive pronoun (modern sein 'his'), and 'mêr' is the 'else' in my sentence. So a more literal rendering of that interpretation of 'hât ieman sîn iht mêr erdâht' would be 'has anyone his something more conceived?', i.e. 'has anyone come up with another thing of his?'.

That said, I didn't know that 'sin' can mean 'Gedanke'. Analysing the sentence as 'has anyone come up with a better/another idea' might make sense then. However, I'm not sure if the vowel length difference can be neglected, and since this is MHG and not OHG I'd also expect an article if 'sîn' is indeed a noun.

Ok, I see.
That article-thing you mention bugged me too. But I thought since modern English has no article (some greater idea) maybe MHG didn't need one as well.

[Jipí]

hât ieman sîn iht mêr erdâht - has someone thought of some greater idea

My stab at it would be 'has anyone come up with something else?'
(native speaker of modern German, but no expert on MHG)

I've had some MHG at uni, and I'd translate it the same way as Cedh without any context, and I think this sîn is the masculine 3rd singular genitive pronoun, as I wouldn't expect the infinitive of 'to be' in this position (both > NHG sein 'to be; his'). FWIW, see http://www.woerterbuchnetz.de/Lexer?bookref=1,621,42 for erdâht. So yeah, I'd assume it means something like "Has anyone thought up/imagined anything more about it/him", if that fits with the surrounding text. As for 'idea', I'd expect that to be gedanc or gedanke rather than sin. Compare —

ge-, gi-danc, -danke stswM [Pl. auch gedenke], Gedanke; (Nach-)Denken; Vorstellung, Überelgung; Absicht, Einfall; Sinn, Herz, Verlangen; Verstand; g. haben +G [auch] gedenken; [auch expl., z.B. angestlicher g. Angst].

sin stM, Sinn; Verstand, Klugheit; Kunst; Geist; Seele, Herz; Gesinnung; Bewusstsein, Besinnung; Wahrnehmung; Gefühl; Gedanke, Überlegung, Einsicht, Erkenntnis; Absicht, Wille, Kraft, Streben; Bedeutung.

Vowel length can't be neglected, since it forms minimal pairs – although it's usually not indicated in manuscripts, though I suppose often you can reconstruct it through verse. If it didn't matter, why would you indicate it so consistently in modern editions? Also, long vowels produced some diphthongs in NHG, while the short vowels didn't or just got lengthened in some cases (e.g. regularly in open syllables), so e.g. in our case sîn /si:n/ > sein /zaɪn/, but sin /sɪn/ > Sinn /zɪn/. As for the pronunciation of <zz>, we were taught to neglect the original pronunciation (either dorsal or apical, I forget) in favor of [s], which it merged into, and just take it as a clue of earlier *tt.

[Anders]

hât ieman sîn iht mêr erdâht - has someone thought of some greater idea

My stab at it would be 'has anyone come up with something else?'
(native speaker of modern German, but no expert on MHG)

I've had some MHG at uni, and I'd translate it the same way as Cedh without any context, and I think this sîn is the masculine 3rd singular genitive pronoun, as I wouldn't expect the infinitive of 'to be' in this position (both > NHG sein 'to be; his'). FWIW, see http://www.woerterbuchnetz.de/Lexer?bookref=1,621,42 for erdâht. So yeah, I'd assume it means something like "Has anyone thought up/imagined anything more about it/him", if that fits with the surrounding text. As for 'idea', I'd expect that to be gedanc or gedanke rather than sin. Compare —

ge-, gi-danc, -danke stswM [Pl. auch gedenke], Gedanke; (Nach-)Denken; Vorstellung, Überelgung; Absicht, Einfall; Sinn, Herz, Verlangen; Verstand; g. haben +G [auch] gedenken; [auch expl., z.B. angestlicher g. Angst].

sin stM, Sinn; Verstand, Klugheit; Kunst; Geist; Seele, Herz; Gesinnung; Bewusstsein, Besinnung; Wahrnehmung; Gefühl; Gedanke, Überlegung, Einsicht, Erkenntnis; Absicht, Wille, Kraft, Streben; Bedeutung.

Vowel length can't be neglected, since it forms minimal pairs – although it's usually not indicated in manuscripts, though I suppose often you can reconstruct it through verse. If it didn't matter, why would you indicate it so consistently in modern editions? Also, long vowels produced some diphthongs in NHG, while the short vowels didn't or just got lengthened in some cases (e.g. regularly in open syllables), so e.g. in our case sîn /si:n/ > sein /zaɪn/, but sin /sɪn/ > Sinn /zɪn/. As for the pronunciation of <zz>, we were taught to neglect the original pronunciation (either dorsal or apical, I forget) in favor of [s], which it merged into, and just take it as a clue of earlier *tt.

Thanks.
I think I have found a translation of this text now into modern German in a book I have ordered from a library. I hope that one will clear this up. If it does, I will come back to this then.

[Bristel]

I tried translating it into Modern German with "Hat jemand sein etwas mehr gedacht?"

Is that correct?

[Jipí]

Is that correct?

No. And please shut up before you make even more of a fool of yourself.

[Bristel]

Is that correct?

No. And please shut up before you make even more of a fool of yourself.

Who pooped in your Cheerios this morning?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, don't bite my head off.

[candrodor]

It just makes me more fascinated with historical German, as I just discovered while researching "er-", to my surprise, that German is replete with verbal prefixes...

I tried translating it into Modern German with "Hat jemand sein etwas mehr gedacht?"

Is that correct?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but how good is your Modern German in general?

[Jipí]

I must apologize. I got the tone wrong. I was annoyed that you, Bristel, seemed to be merely guessing so far – probably with a good intent, but ultimately giving the impression to me – subjectively, that is! – that you are not actually knowledgeable about German or Middle High German, thus misleading the OP with your answers. Again, I apologize for my harsh tone and I know that it was wrong to post such an offensive comment publically. I realize that this has fired back on me, so that I'm the fool now. Candrodor found the words I should have said, but I lost my temper unfortunately.

[Bristel]

It just makes me more fascinated with historical German, as I just discovered while researching "er-", to my surprise, that German is replete with verbal prefixes...

I tried translating it into Modern German with "Hat jemand sein etwas mehr gedacht?"

Is that correct?

Please don't take this the wrong way, but how good is your Modern German in general?

I would say pretty bad.

[Bristel]

I must apologize. I got the tone wrong. I was annoyed that you, Bristel, seemed to be merely guessing so far – probably with a good intent, but ultimately giving the impression to me – subjectively, that is! – that you are not actually knowledgeable about German or Middle High German, thus misleading the OP with your answers. Again, I apologize for my harsh tone and I know that it was wrong to post such an offensive comment publically. I realize that this has fired back on me, so that I'm the fool now. Candrodor found the words I should have said, but I lost my temper unfortunately.

All is forgiven!

I was trying to contribute, but also work on learning for myself as well.