lingua franca of the hanse

[Beli Orao]

What was the lingua franca of the hanseatic league (I assume a variety a low german)?

[Yng]

I would imagine low German in general - weren't they more or less mutually intelligible back then? If they're not any more.

[hwhatting]

Yes, low German; it's the source of a lot of loanwords in the Scandinavian langages.

[Aurora Rossa]

Why not the more prestigious-sounding High German?

[Dewrad]

Why not the more prestigious-sounding High German?

It's long since gotten to the point with Eddy where one is unsure if he's making an attempt at humour or is simply genuinely dense.

[hwhatting]

Why not the more prestigious-sounding High German?

It's long since gotten to the point with Eddy where one is unsure if he's making an attempt at humour or is simply genuinely dense.

In case it's a genuine question - during the Middle Ages up to about the 17th/18th century Lower German (Niederdeutsch) was a literary language in its own right. The "lower" was in opprosition to "Upper German" (Oberdeutsch), i.e. the dialects of the Southern, mountainous areas, while Lower German is spoken in the Northern lowlands. Only after the decline of the Hanse and the spread of the High German standard, when "Lower German" fell out of use as written language in favour of High German, the term obtained the additional connotation of being a rural and uncultivated speech variety.

[Jipí]

And today's Standard German (also, confusingly, referred to as 'High German' in non-scholarly contexts) is essentially a spelling pronunciation of High German by Low German speakers.

[Shm Jay]

Why not the more prestigious-sounding High German?

Because they really wanted the even more prestigious-sounding Old High Vulcan, but it wasn’t available and they decided not to bother spending money on second best.

[Xephyr]

Why not the more prestigious-sounding High German?

Well shit, why not Attic Greek? What's more prestigious than that? In fact, why aren't we using it right now?!

[Aurora Rossa]

In case it's a genuine question - during the Middle Ages up to about the 17th/18th century Lower German (Niederdeutsch) was a literary language in its own right. The "lower" was in opprosition to "Upper German" (Oberdeutsch), i.e. the dialects of the Southern, mountainous areas, while Lower German is spoken in the Northern lowlands. Only after the decline of the Hanse and the spread of the High German standard, when "Lower German" fell out of use as written language in favour of High German, the term obtained the additional connotation of being a rural and uncultivated speech variety.

So if anything, high German would have been seen as unprestigious and backward, like how we view Appalachian accents or something?

[Shm Jay]

No, it’s because they were too far away and the dialect was just too different. Why would you bother learning someone else’s German dialect, which is nothing like the languages of the people whom you trade with, when your own dialect is much closer to the languages of the people whom you trade with?

[Xephyr]

Why would you bother learning someone else’s German dialect, which is nothing like the languages of the people whom you trade with, when your own dialect is much closer to the languages of the people whom you trade with?

[Aurora Rossa]

Exactly, Xephyr, for the prestige.

[Beli Orao]

I wish standard German had Low German phonology with its current morphology intact.

[Jipí]

So if anything, high German would have been seen as unprestigious and backward, like how we view Appalachian accents or something?

Noooooooooo. Can't apply American stereotypes of The South or Rednecks to other countries Low German and High German were distinct varieties of their own right back up to the 17th century, when Low German lost prestige (and probably didn't do so all of a sudden) and became replaced by High German as the literary language, as Hans-Werner said. Nowadays (I think) few people can still speak their local Platt (that is, local dialect of Low German), probably also because Standard German (which gradually developed from the 18th century on) is omnipresent in the media.

Compare (I hope you don't mind it's not the Internationale; Source: Lower Saxonian and Alemannic Wikipedia):

Uns Vadder in'n Himmel!
Laat hilligt warrn dien Naam.
Laat kamen dien Riek.
Laat warrn dien Willen so as in'n Himmel,
so ok op de Eerd.
Uns dääglich Brood giff uns vundaag.
Un vergiff uns unse Schuld,
as wi de vergeven hebbt,
de an uns schüllig sünd.
Un laat uns nich versöcht warrn.
Mak uns frie vun dat Böse.
Denn dien is dat Riek un de Kraft un de Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit.
Amen.

Vater unser im Himmel,
geheiligt werde dein Name.
Dein Reich komme.
Dein Wille geschehe, wie im Himmel
so auf Erden.
Unser tägliches Brot gib uns heute.
Und vergib uns unsere Schuld,
wie auch wir vergeben unsern Schuldigern.
Und führe uns nicht in Versuchung,
sondern erlöse uns von dem Bösen.
Denn dein ist das Reich und die Kraft und die Herrlichkeit in Ewigkeit.
Amen.

(First line should be "unser Vater", but it's fossilized as "Vater unser" in the Lord's Prayer)

Onser Vadr em Hemmel,
du bischt haelig,
älle Menscha sollet dir d'Ehr geba.
Dei Kenigreich soll zo ons komma.
Was du willschd muas g'scheah em Hemmel
ond auf dr Erde.
Gib ons jedan Dag onser Brot,
dass mr läba kennat.
Ond verzeih ons, was mr doa hent!
Breng ons ed en d'Versuachong,
dass mr ebbas Orechts deant;
ond hilf ons,
dass ons koe Ibel hoemsuacht.

(The ending formula "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever and ever" is missing here)

Note that these aren't literal translations of another.

Now why do I expect Eddy to suggest to partition Germany along the Benrath line and to reintroduce Low German as the standard language in the northern part?

[Aurora Rossa]

Noooooooooo. Can't apply American stereotypes of The South to other countries

I didn't mean to go that route. I merely mentioned the Appalachian dialect as an example of an unprestigious dialect spoken in mountainous areas.

[hwhatting]

Noooooooooo. Can't apply American stereotypes of The South to other countries

I didn't mean to go that route. I merely mentioned the Appalachian dialect as an example of an unprestigious dialect spoken in mountainous areas.

As Guitarplayer said, this isn't applicable here. Middle High German was a literary language as well, with a rich literature and quite prestigious as well. At the time, Germany was not very centralised and there existed two main regional literary standards (and these were not standard languages in the modern sense, there was a lot of variation); one of whom later won out (a development that took centuries). It's comparable to medieval France, with Old French in the North and Old Provençal in the South; only with the growing centralisation of France in early modern times French won out against Provençal as national standard - in France the main reason was that the capital and royal court were based in th French-speaking North, in Germany the main reasos was that the Potestant church (which predominated in the North) used Luther's High German bible translation, so High German became the church language; also the big territorial principalities like Prussia used High German as administrative language. IIRC, some of the Hanseatic cities kept using Low German as administrative language into the 18th or even early 19th century, but with the church and the big principalities of the North using High German (and the South using it anyway), Low German lost out in the end.

[Yng]

(The ending formula "For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever and ever" is missing here)

Interesting that they use the protestant version in some and the catholic version in the others.

[Salmoneus]

Could be coincidence: but it could also be because Low German was spoken in the north (ie by Protestants) and High German in the south (ie by Catholics). And Standard German has the Protestant version because Germany was traditionally Protestant (both by the bulk of the population and because the rulers in Prussia-Brandenburg were Protestant).

[Yng]

Could be coincidence: but it could also be because Low German was spoken in the north (ie by Protestants) and High German in the south (ie by Catholics). And Standard German has the Protestant version because Germany was traditionally Protestant (both by the bulk of the population and because the rulers in Prussia-Brandenburg were Protestant).

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[The Inquisitor]

With regards to the Hanseatic League, the "lingua franca" was the Lübeck dialect (e.g. "[The German linguistic community] was itself divided by the late thirteenth century into distinct areas of Low and High German, not always mutually comprehensible. Within the Low German area a standard form of speech evolved, as the Lübeck dialect came to predominate on account of its diffusion through the Hanseatic League." - from the New Cambridge Medieval History).

[linguoboy]

Could be coincidence: but it could also be because Low German was spoken in the north (ie by Protestants) and High German in the south (ie by Catholics). And Standard German has the Protestant version because Germany was traditionally Protestant (both by the bulk of the population and because the rulers in Prussia-Brandenburg were Protestant).

Except that the Swabians--in contrast to other Southern Germans--are predominately Protestants.