The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

[Sumelic]

FWIW, the l is intrusive. (The etymon is catawba.)

Hmm, not according to Wikipedia.

Some additional words:

• haiku
• samurai
• ouroboros
• uroboros

[Travis B.]

haiku: /ˌhaɪˈku/ [ˌhaeˈkʰu] (a notable exception to Canadian Raising before fortis obstruents in my dialect)
samurai: /ˈsæməraɪ/ [ˈsɛ̃ːmʁ̩ːʁaːe]
ouroboros, uroboros: These are not native words in my dialect; I have never actually heard them spoken, so I do not know how I should "natively" pronounce them.

[Zaarin]

haiku /ˈhaɪkʰu/
samurai /ˌsæmɞˈɹ̱aɪ/ (I'm not certain about the second vowel here)
ouroboros /oʊ̯ˌɹ̱oʊ̯ˈbɔɹ̱oʊ̯s/
uroboros -- I don't know this word; my guess would be: /uˌɹ̱oʊ̯ˈbɔɹ̱oʊ̯s/

[alynnidalar]

/haɪˈkʰu/
/ˈsɛəməɹˌaɪ/
/ˌɔərəˈbɔəɹɪs/ (I don't know if I've ever actually heard this said--I might have just come up with this pronunciation based on reading the word)
uroboros, I've never seen, so I don't know how to pronounce it!

I don't quite know what my r is, so I didn't even bother trying to figure it out. It is probably not actually [ɹ].

[TaylorS]

Some additional words:

• haiku
• samurai
• ouroboros
• uroboros

/ˈhaɪku/ [ˈhʌɪkɯ]
/ˈsæməɹaɪ/ [ˈsæməɹˤɑɪ]
/ˌuɹoˈboɹos/ [ɹ̩ˤoˈboɹˤos]
/ˌjuɹoˈboɹos/ [jɹ̩ˤoˈboɹˤos]

[ol bofosh]

ˈhɐɪ̯.kʏʉ̯
ˈsæ.mə.ʋɹɐɪ̯

I've always said it: [ɔː.ʋɹə.ˈbɔː.ʋɹəs]. At a guess of the second one I'd say [ɞː.ʋɹə.ˈbɔː.ʋɹəs].

But looking at Wikipedia, it'd be more like [jʏː.ʋɹə.ˈbɒ.ʋɹəs] or [ɔː.ˈʋɹɒ.bə.ʋɹəs], though I prefer the second one. That first one sounbds like "You're a borras." (whatever a borras is, lol).

[schyrsivochter]

Here are my versions of the words from the start post, as accurately as I can (and want to) transcribe them:

closer [ˈkɫ̥ɜɵ̯.sə]
cuneiform [ˈkj̥ʉː.niː.ə.ˌfoːm]
hair, her and heir [hæ̈ː] [hɞ̜ː] [ʔɛːɐ̯]

factory [ˈfæ̞k.tʰə.ɻɪ]
factorial [fæk.ˈtʰoːɻɪ.ˌʌɫ]
century [ˈsɛn.t͡ʃə.ɻɪ]
centurion [sɜn.ˈtj̥ʉː.ɻɪ.ən]
victory [ˈvɪk.tʰə.ɻɪ]
victorious [vɪk.ˈtʰoː.ɻɪ.ə̹s]
restaurant [ˈɻɛs.tʰə.ɻɑˑntʰ]
restauranteur ???
history [ˈhɪs.tʰə.ɻɪ]
historical [hɪs.ˈtʰo.ɻɪ.kɫ̩]
mystery [ˈmɪs.tʰə.ɻɪ]
mysterious [mɪs.ˈtʰɪ.ɻɪ.əs]
interest [ˈʔɪn.tʰə̆.ɻɜstʰ]
interesting [ˈʔɪn.tɻ̊ɜs.tʰɪŋ]
interestingly [ʔɪn.ˈtɻ̊ɜs.tʰɪŋ.lɪ]

plosive [pl̥ɜɵ̯.sɪv̥]

I learned English as a second language and haven’t been to the UK. I learned British pronunciation only from watching Sherlock ^^, but, as you can see, my pronunciation seems about right—there are maybe a few things that a native speaker would handle differently, though. Anyway, I’m careful to not use American English any more. (A while ago I just decided that I wanted to learn real, good British pronunciation and try to memorise the differences between American and British English.) I seem to use [ɻ] and [ɹ] interchangeably (haven’t quite found out yet), so I transcribed both as [ɻ], which I see as my standard. (I was sad to read that this is only common in some American dialects, and the ‘normal’ sound is [ɹ]. I’m already working on it!)

[jmcd]

One can distinguish between American English and British English in spelling and, to some extent in vocabulary*. In pronunciation, however, there are perhaps greater differences from one end of either country to another than there are between Oxford and the Midwest.


*But even that is exaggerated: people do use 'pants' to mean 'trousers' in Yorkshire though for example.

[linguoboy]

I seem to use [ɻ] and [ɹ] interchangeably (haven’t quite found out yet), so I transcribed both as [ɻ], which I see as my standard. (I was sad to read that this is only common in some American dialects, and the ‘normal’ sound is [ɹ]. I’m already working on it!)

That's funny for this American to hear because I associate a true retroflex /r/ with Hiberno-English and the traditional accent of the West Country (now sadly much in decline). Offhand, I can't think of a single American variety which uses it.

So just vocalise your dark l's, drop your h's, centralise /au/ and round /ai/, and people with think you're from near Bristol.

[schyrsivochter]

So just vocalise your dark l's, drop your h's, centralise /au/ and round /ai/, and people with think you're from near Bristol.

You don’t mean me with that, do you?

But apart from that, where would you put someone with that pronunciation?

[linguoboy]

So just vocalise your dark l's, drop your h's, centralise /au/ and round /ai/, and people with think you're from near Bristol.

You don’t mean me with that, do you?

This advice is for anyone with a true retroflex /r/ and an otherwise RP-ish accent.

But apart from that, where would you put someone with that pronunciation?

With what pronunciation?

[schyrsivochter]

My pronunciation.

[KathTheDragon]

You'll have to actually give us recordings first.

[schyrsivochter]

… I meant with the transcription I posted. If that isn’t sufficient, then I’m sorry, forget that question.

[linguoboy]

… I meant with the transcription I posted. If that isn’t sufficient, then I’m sorry, forget that question.

I think my perception of it as non-native would overwhelm any regional features. Offhand, for instance, I can't think of any native variety with aspiration of /t/ in the cluster /st/. So if I heard [hɪs.ˈtʰo.ɻɪ.kɫ̩], my first reaction would be "This is someone who's never heard this word spoken aloud by a native speaker." (The stressed vowel here is also a giveaway. In GA it would be [ɒ], with some varieties fronting it to [a] or even further. RP has [ɔː] here. I'm pretty sure it belongs to the FORCE lexical set everywhere, so you'd only expect [o] in those rare varieties without the horse-hoarse merger, such as Caribbean and Indian English.)

[Zaarin]

… I meant with the transcription I posted. If that isn’t sufficient, then I’m sorry, forget that question.

My first impression was Boston, but as I read more I have to agree with linguoboy and go with foreign.

[schyrsivochter]

Offhand, for instance, I can't think of any native variety with aspiration of /t/ in the cluster /st/. So if I heard [hɪs.ˈtʰo.ɻɪ.kɫ̩], my first reaction would be "This is someone who's never heard this word spoken aloud by a native speaker." (The stressed vowel here is also a giveaway. In GA it would be [ɒ], with some varieties fronting it to [a] or even further. RP has [ɔː] here.

I’d think it was the norm, aspirating the t in history or historical, since the s is in a different syllable?

And as for the [oː], it’s the phoneme /ɔː/, I know. I just observed that this phoneme tends to be pronounced [ɔ̝ː] or even [oː] in British English and I’m mimicking that.

[schyrsivochter]

I just read that it is pronounced /hɪˈstɒɹɪkəl/ in British English—I’ve apparently been mis-pronouncing that! So I’ll just correct it (thanks for pointing that out to me!):
closer [ˈkɫ̥ɜɵ̯.sə]
cuneiform [ˈkj̥ʉː.niː.ə.ˌfoːm]
hair, her and heir [hæ̈ː] [hɞ̜ː] [ʔɛːɐ̯]

factory [ˈfæ̞k.tʰə.ɻɪ]
factorial [fæk.ˈtʰoːɻɪ.ˌʌɫ]
century [ˈsɛn.t͡ʃə.ɻɪ]
centurion [sɜn.ˈtj̥ʉː.ɻɪ.ən]
victory [ˈvɪk.tʰə.ɻɪ]
victorious [vɪk.ˈtʰoː.ɻɪ.ə̹s]
restaurant [ˈɻɛs.tʰə.ɻɑˑntʰ]
restauranteur ???
history [ˈhɪs.tʰə.ɻɪ]
historical [hɪs.ˈtɒ.ɻɪ.kɫ̩]
mystery [ˈmɪs.tʰə.ɻɪ]
mysterious [mɪs.ˈtʰɪ.ɻɪ.əs]
interest [ˈʔɪn.tʰə̆.ɻɜstʰ]
interesting [ˈʔɪn.tɻ̊ɜs.tʰɪŋ]
interestingly [ʔɪn.ˈtɻ̊ɜs.tʰɪŋ.lɪ]

plosive [pl̥ɜɵ̯.sɪv̥]

[Mâq Lar]

*But even that is exaggerated: people do use 'pants' to mean 'trousers' in Yorkshire though for example.

That's news to me as a Yorkshireman! I've only heard 'pants' to mean 'underwear' or 'rubbish' (as in 'that movie was pants')

[jmcd]

Maybe it's another part of Yorkshire. In any case, someone from Yorkshire I knew at uni used to say that. Having googled it, I found confirmation of this usage in Lancashire and Yorkshire: https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblem ... when_they/.

[Mâq Lar]

Maybe it's another part of Yorkshire. In any case, someone from Yorkshire I knew at uni used to say that. Having googled it, I found confirmation of this usage in Lancashire and Yorkshire: https://www.reddit.com/r/britishproblem ... when_they/.

Interesting! It's always been 'trousers' among my family or friends (apart from the ones who call them 'keks'). There's a surprising amount of variation in a small range of distance

[linguoboy]

I’d think it was the norm, aspirating the t in history or historical, since the s is in a different syllable?

/st/ is normally pronounced as a cluster in English. The only exceptions I can think of involve compounds, e.g. pisstake with [tʰ] vs mistake with [st].

And as for the [oː], it’s the phoneme /ɔː/, I know. I just observed that this phoneme tends to be pronounced [ɔ̝ː] or even [oː] in British English and I’m mimicking that.

But you didn't write [oː] there, you wrote [o]. Is this a phonetic transcription or isn't it?

[jmcd]

… I meant with the transcription I posted. If that isn’t sufficient, then I’m sorry, forget that question.

I think my perception of it as non-native would overwhelm any regional features. Offhand, for instance, I can't think of any native variety with aspiration of /t/ in the cluster /st/. So if I heard [hɪs.ˈtʰo.ɻɪ.kɫ̩], my first reaction would be "This is someone who's never heard this word spoken aloud by a native speaker." (The stressed vowel here is also a giveaway. In GA it would be [ɒ], with some varieties fronting it to [a] or even further. RP has [ɔː] here. I'm pretty sure it belongs to the FORCE lexical set everywhere, so you'd only expect [o] in those rare varieties without the horse-hoarse merger, such as Caribbean and Indian English.)

I can see why you might think that but I at least don't put it in the FORCE lexical set as I don't have the horse-hoarse merger and I pronounce force [fo:ɾs] or [fo:ɹs] whereas I pronounce historical [hɘstɔːrɘkəɫ̩].

And Arthur Conan Doyle was initially brought up in my hometown and studied there as well. Joseph Bell, the inspiration for Conan Doyle's famous series, was likewise a denizen of the Athens of the North.

EDIT: Having checked wikipedia, some Indian English varieties does have the pronunciation /oː/, but only in varieties with the horse-hoarse merger.

[Sumelic]

I thought histORical was in the same lexical set as "orange" and "horrible." So /ɒr/ in British English, which has the vowel of LOT instead of FORCE (see this post on John Wells's phonetic blog which describes how "historian" and "historical" have different stressed vowels in Received Pronunciation). It is merged with NORTH(~FORCE) in some varieties of American English by a tense-lax merger parallel to the the merry-marry-Mary merger.

[ol bofosh]

*But even that is exaggerated: people do use 'pants' to mean 'trousers' in Yorkshire though for example.

That's news to me as a Yorkshireman! I've only heard 'pants' to mean 'underwear' or 'rubbish' (as in 'that movie was pants')

Maybe it's more Lancastrians? I knew a man from near Manchester that'd say "pants" for trousers.