The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

[Travis B.]

I first became aware of the possibility of a distinction in these words from Tolkien. When he introduces the coinage smial in his appendix to LotR, he says something like, "Rhyming with dial rather than smile" and I was like "What the hell's the difference?"

Then there is real versus reel, which are homophones for me as [ʁʷi(ː)ɯ̯].

I was chuffed a few years ago to realise that I still distinguish quiet from quite even in rapid speech when the former is monosyllabic on account of my "Canadian" raising.

As can I.

[Znex]

Yeah, I can't even pronounce Neil as one syllable without doing something weird like making the L as weirdly clear as it is in German.

Nup, Neil and kneel are homophones for me: [nɪiʊ̯]

higher and hire are [haɪə̯]. hour kinda becomes [æ(ʊ)ə̯].

[Vlürch]

Then there is real versus reel, which are homophones for me as [ʁʷi(ː)ɯ̯].

How can any dialect/accent/whatever of English in the US have [ʁ]? Is there so much French influence in the northern states?

Anyway, I pronunce "real" and "real" differently, something like [ɾiə̯ɫ~ɾiə̯l] and [ɹ̠ɪə̯ɫ~ɹ̠ɪə̯l] respectively. I'm not entirely sure if the /l/ is [ɫ] or [l], though... I mean, I know there's something g-y going on in my mouth at the end, but I can't really tell if it's velarisation or (post-)palatalisation or what. The /r/ is also probably more specifically something along the lines of [ɾʲ~ɾˠ~ɾ̠ʲ~ɾ̠ˠ~ɾ̻ʲ~ɾ̻ˠ], but I have absolutely no idea about the specifics even though it's my mouth.

Neil and kneel are homophones for me: [nɪiʊ̯]

Monosyllabically, [nʲiɪ̯ɫ~nʲiɪ̯l] and [niːɫ~niːl]. "Kneel" is impossible for me to pronounce disyllabically, but Neil could just as well be [nʲɪi̯əɫ~nʲɪi̯əl].

[vokzhen]

Then there is real versus reel, which are homophones for me as [ʁʷi(ː)ɯ̯].

How can any dialect/accent/whatever of English in the US have [ʁ]? Is there so much French influence in the northern states?

Nothing to do with French, afaik. It's common in the US, at least, to lack any coronal contact in /r/, so-called molar or bunched r. Personally mine's usually "retroflex" (nonpalatalized postalveolar, slightly further back than /S Z/), but in some places it's velar or prevelar, still with distinctive sulcalization/grooving and epiglottalization that makes it very distinct from a normal /G/.

[Zaarin]

Then there is real versus reel, which are homophones for me as [ʁʷi(ː)ɯ̯].

How can any dialect/accent/whatever of English in the US have [ʁ]? Is there so much French influence in the northern states?

Nothing to do with French, afaik. It's common in the US, at least, to lack any coronal contact in /r/, so-called molar or bunched r. Personally mine's usually "retroflex" (nonpalatalized postalveolar, slightly further back than /S Z/), but in some places it's velar or prevelar, still with distinctive sulcalization/grooving and epiglottalization that makes it very distinct from a normal /G/.

I also have the bunched R, though mine is somewhere on the border between postalveolar and prevelar, and I typically transcribe it as [ɹ̠ˁ]. For the record, mine at least sounds absolutely nothing like French or German /ʁ/ (though for me, I always pronounce /ʁ/ as [ʀ]--but even hearing a native French or German speaker pronounce /ʁ/ is very different from my [ɹ̠ˁ]).

[finlay]

I always thought Travis was lying or overanalysing.... I mean, I still think that to an extent but I heard his voice once and it's not far off the mark at least. The thing is it sounds like a speech impediment to me. He claims it's representative of the local dialect which I can't quite buy.

[Travis B.]

I always thought Travis was lying or overanalysing.... I mean, I still think that to an extent but I heard his voice once and it's not far off the mark at least. The thing is it sounds like a speech impediment to me. He claims it's representative of the local dialect which I can't quite buy.

My /r/ does not seem to sound different from others' around here. Unless you are arguing that they articulate it differently from me, but have a very similar acoustic realization. The only difference I can tell is that, after a coronal, my /r/ tends to have a palatoalveolar coronal articulation, whereas many people here have a retroflex coronal articulation in this same position.

(My transcription has not always been correct, though; I used to not mark labialization, whereas initially I actually have pretty strong labialization thereof, and also I used to mark epiglottalization more than I actually have it. But I quite unambiguously lack coronal articulation for /r/ except after another coronal.)

[Imralu]

I actually have no idea what my /r/ is. It feels like it doesn't involve my tongue at all and the sound is caused by the teeth being really close together and the lips having that curved-out kind of rounding almost the same as the rounding of /S/. I know it MUST involve my tongue somehow and it's not just lying flat - and I know it's not retroflex ... and when I do retroflex it, it doesn't sound American to me - it sounds Chinese. And actually, for /r/ before a vowel, I don't hear any quality difference between a standard American /r/ and my /r/.

[Znex]

I actually have no idea what my /r/ is. It feels like it doesn't involve my tongue at all and the sound is caused by the teeth being really close together and the lips having that curved-out kind of rounding almost the same as the rounding of /S/. I know it MUST involve my tongue somehow and it's not just lying flat - and I know it's not retroflex ... and when I do retroflex it, it doesn't sound American to me - it sounds Chinese. And actually, for /r/ before a vowel, I don't hear any quality difference between a standard American /r/ and my /r/.

Are you sure it's not retroflex? It doesn't take much effort for me to pronounce it either, and my teeth are close and lips rounded as rounded can be, but if I feel my tongue as I pronounce it with my finger, my tongue is bunched up and close to the roof of my mouth compared to with other consonants. If I try to pronounce [t d] with my tongue in the same position, they sound Indian (as many Indian languages use retroflex consonants); whereas if I pronounce [t d] with my tongue in the same position as for [ʃ], it sounds off.

American /ɹ/ can often be rounded as well anyway if it's retroflex, whereas Mandarin /ɻ/ I'm pretty sure is never rounded.

[Zaarin]

I know the Dutch pronunciation, but how does one pronounce fluyt in English? My best guesses are /flɛɪ̯t/ /flaɪ̯t/ /flɔɪ̯t/, but I can't seem to find any definite information...

[Daedolon]

/flʌjt/ ?

[linguoboy]

I know the Dutch pronunciation, but how does one pronounce fluyt in English? My best guesses are /flɛɪ̯t/ /flaɪ̯t/ /flɔɪ̯t/, but I can't seem to find any definite information...

/flɛɪ̯t/ seems unlikely to me. My first instinct is /flaɪ̯t/, but my reference sources are letting me down.

ETA: /fluːt/ is also a possibility given the coincidence in meaning and the existence of examples like Schuykill.

[Zaarin]

I know the Dutch pronunciation, but how does one pronounce fluyt in English? My best guesses are /flɛɪ̯t/ /flaɪ̯t/ /flɔɪ̯t/, but I can't seem to find any definite information...

/flɛɪ̯t/ seems unlikely to me. My first instinct is /flaɪ̯t/, but my reference sources are letting me down.

ETA: /fluːt/ is also a possibility given the coincidence in meaning and the existence of examples like Schuykill.

/flaɪ̯t/ was my first guess as well based on the surnames Van Schuyler and Van Schuyver, but loanwords/names aren't always consistent...

[KathTheDragon]

/flu:t/ was my first guess.

[Sumelic]

I know the Dutch pronunciation, but how does one pronounce fluyt in English? My best guesses are /flɛɪ̯t/ /flaɪ̯t/ /flɔɪ̯t/, but I can't seem to find any definite information...

I'd use /flaɪ̯t/. Other similar words/names: Huygens, Kuiper.

[Travis B.]

I also would use /flaɪt/ myself.

[Zaarin]

I know the Dutch pronunciation, but how does one pronounce fluyt in English? My best guesses are /flɛɪ̯t/ /flaɪ̯t/ /flɔɪ̯t/, but I can't seem to find any definite information...

I'd use /flaɪ̯t/. Other similar words/names: Huygens, Kuiper.

Huh, I knew Kuiper was pronounced with /aɪ̯/, but I've always pronounced Huygens with /ɔɪ̯/--and Wikipedia does offer that as a second pronunciation...

[KathTheDragon]

Ditto for Huygens.

[jmcd]

I just realised I had more spelling pronounciations and the like than I thought:

diaspora /dijəspoɾə/
diminutive /dɪmɪnjɪtɪv/

[linguoboy]

I just realised I had more spelling pronounciations and the like than I thought:

diaspora /dijəspoɾə/
diminutive /dɪmɪnjɪtɪv/

That's how I say those words...

[Travis B.]

diaspora: /ˌdaɪəˈspɔrə/ [ˌtaːe̯jəˈsʲpɔːʁə(ː)]
diminutive: /dəˈmɪnjəˌtɪv/ [tə̃ːˈmɘ̃ː(n)jɘˌtʰɘːf]*

* The transcription may be confusing, because I analyze /ə/ in many unstressed syllables for the same quality as /ɪ/, which I only analyze in stressed syllables.

[finlay]

Dutch ui sounds more like english /au/ to me

[linguoboy]

Dutch ui sounds more like english /au/ to me

For me, that's true of Amsterdam Dutch. But for the speakers I know from Flanders, it sounds more like the /ow/ of Bawlmerese.

[ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪]

Stops and syllabification (Places interesting for me are underlined):
next, cluster, former expansion
EDIT: also hurry

[linguoboy]

next

[kst̚]. In allegro speech, the /t/ may be dropped.

cluster

[kʰɫ]. The /l/ is probably partly devoiced, but definitely not fully.

former expansion

[ɚ.ɛksp] ~ [ɚ.ɪksp]. No resyllabification and no cluster simplification.