The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

[Whimemsz]

I freely admit that this is a topic I know almost nothing about. I'm going by what Salmoneus told me a few months ago.

[Travis B.]

No variety of English has uvulars, especially not fucking syllabic epiglottalized uvular approximants.

I.e. "I think it can't be, so it must not".

(I have heard of uvular /r/ realizations in other English dialects, so this is just you obviously being narrowminded about what can be found in English.)

And my /r/ is not even uvular all the time; in other positions it is frequently velar or both postalveolar and velar. The epiglottalization is significant because that is what often distinguishes my velar /r/ from my un-epiglottalized velar approximant.

[Travis B.]

I think Travis's /r/ is basically a "bunched r", perhaps a bit further back than usual (hence the identification as uvular). In the recordings I've heard, it's been the /l/ that's stood out, not the /r/.

This.

(My /l/ when recorded sounds awfully like a /w/ to me, except when enunciating it is clearly not a /w/ because it lacks a labial component except when preceded by a rounded vowel or, when syllabic, /w/.)

[Pthagnar]

i thought what you had for /r/ was a "bunched r" without coronal articulation except after another coronal which always is epiglottalized (which is not distinguished in IPA from pharyngealization), and with the dorsal articulation varying between velar and uvular.

[Travis B.]

i thought what you had for /r/ was a "bunched r" without coronal articulation except after another coronal which always is epiglottalized (which is not distinguished in IPA from pharyngealization), and with the dorsal articulation varying between velar and uvular.

Well yes, that's the long way to put it.

[Pthagnar]

long, i agree, but also essential to understanding

[Bristel]

flower [flaʊwəɹ]
flour [flaʊwəɹ]
flier [flaɪəɹ]
flayer [fleɪəɹ]
flair [fleɪɹ~fler]
floor [flɔəɹ]
flora [flɔrə]
four [fɔəɹ]
poor [pʊəɹ~pɔəɹ]
cure [kʲuəɹ]
fury [fjəriː]

[TaylorS]

tour [tʰʊɹˤ]
poor [pʰʊɹˤ]
cure [cçɝˤ]
fury [fçɝˤi]

No variety of English has uvulars, especially not fucking syllabic epiglottalized uvular approximants.

A pharyngealized R with an uvular of velar realization is very common in large parts of the US, dialectologists call it the "Molar R".

[TaylorS]

Flower [fɫɑʊ̯ɚˤ]
Flour [fɫɑʊ̯ɚˤ]
Flier [fɫaɪ̯ɚˤ]
Flayer [fɫeːɹˤ]
Flair [fɫeːɹˤ]
Floor [fɫɔːɹˤ]
Flora [fɫɔːɹˤə]

[Ngohe]

Flower [ˈflaʊ̯.ə] ~ [flaː]
Flour [ˈflaʊ̯.ə] ~ [flaː]
Flier [ˈflɑɪ̯.ə] ~ [flɑː]
Flayer [ˈflɛɪ̯.ə]
Flair [flɛː]
Floor [flo̞ː]
Flora [ˈflo̞ː.ɹə]

four [fo̞ː]
poor [pʰo̞ː]
cure [ˈkʰjɵə̯]
fury [ˈfjɵə̯.ɹi]

No variety of English has uvulars, especially not fucking syllabic epiglottalized uvular approximants.

In fact, some varieties have.

[Travis B.]

Here are some more words:

real
deal
cruel
duel
steal
peal
stool
pool
stale
dale
stole
dole

[communistplot]

Here are some more words:

real
deal
cruel
duel
steal
peal
stool
pool
stale
dale
stole
dole

[ʋiɪ̯ʊ]
[diɪ̯ʊ]
[kʋuʊ̯ʊ]
[dʲjuʊ̯ʊ]
[stiɪ̯ʊ]
[piɪ̯ʊ]
[stuʊ̯ʊ]
[puʊ̯ʊ]
[steɪ̯ʊ]
[deɪ̯ʊ]
[stoʊ̯ʊ]
[doʊ̯ʊ]

[Nortaneous]

real /riəl/
steal /stiəl/
cruel /krul/
duel /dul/
steal /stiəl/
peal /piəl/
stool /stul/
pool /pul/
stale /steəl/
dale /deəl/
stole /stol/
dole /dol/

iəl eəl = two syllables, ul ol = one syllable, i'm assuming that's what you're looking for

[Travis B.]

iəl eəl = two syllables, ul ol = one syllable, i'm assuming that's what you're looking for

I am indeed looking for which of these are pronounced monosyllabically and which of these are pronounced disyllabically. (There is actually a historical pattern here, but it probably is not obvious unless one maintains it oneself.)

[----]

I only pronounce the /-ol/ ones as monosyllables.

[Travis B.]

Okay, I have a rather boring pattern; all of them are monosyllabic in everyday speech, but all of them with high vowels can break into disyllables when enunciated carefully:

real: /ˈril/ > [ˈɰˤi(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈɰˤiː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
deal: /ˈdil/ > [ˈd̥i(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈd̥iː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
cruel: /ˈkrul/ > [ˈkʰʁˤu(ː)ʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈkʰʁˤuː(w)ʊ(ː)]
duel: /ˈdul/ > [ˈd̻̥ʉ̯̆ŭʊ̯]~[ˈd̻̥ʉ̯uʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈd̻̥ʉ̯u(w)ʊ(ː)]
steal: /ˈstil/ > [ˈs̻t̻i(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈs̻t̻iː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
peal: /ˈpil/ > [ˈpʰi(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈpʰiː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
stool: /ˈstul/ > [ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯̆ŭʊ̯]~[ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯uʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯u(w)ʊ(ː)]
pool: /ˈpul/ > [ˈpʰu(ː)ʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈpʰuː(w)ʊ(ː)]
stale: /ˈstel/ > [ˈs̻t̻e(ː)ɯ̞̯]
dale: /ˈdel/ > [ˈd̥e(ː)ɯ̞̯]
stole: /ˈstol/ > [ˈs̻t̻o(ː)ʊ̯]
dole: /ˈdol/ > [ˈd̥o(ː)ʊ̯]

[Chagen]

First your /r/ is a uvular approximant, and now it's a velar one? Make up your fucking mind.

[----]

Uvulars and velars really aren't all that different on a general level. I'm fairly sure I could understand if someone said, e.g. /ɸaund/ rather than /faund/ for <found>.
Besides, that's hardly the weirdest thing in English dialects you could be freaking out about.

[Travis B.]

First your /r/ is a uvular approximant, and now it's a velar one? Make up your fucking mind.

Do you know what allophony is?

[Pinetree]

Okay, I have a rather boring pattern; all of them are monosyllabic in everyday speech, but all of them with high vowels can break into disyllables when enunciated carefully:

real: /ˈril/ > [ˈɰˤi(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈɰˤiː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
deal: /ˈdil/ > [ˈd̥i(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈd̥iː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
cruel: /ˈkrul/ > [ˈkʰʁˤu(ː)ʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈkʰʁˤuː(w)ʊ(ː)]
duel: /ˈdul/ > [ˈd̻̥ʉ̯̆ŭʊ̯]~[ˈd̻̥ʉ̯uʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈd̻̥ʉ̯u(w)ʊ(ː)]
steal: /ˈstil/ > [ˈs̻t̻i(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈs̻t̻iː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
peal: /ˈpil/ > [ˈpʰi(ː)ɯ̞̯] or, carefully, [ˈpʰiː(j)ɯ̞(ː)]
stool: /ˈstul/ > [ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯̆ŭʊ̯]~[ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯uʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈs̻t̻ʉ̯u(w)ʊ(ː)]
pool: /ˈpul/ > [ˈpʰu(ː)ʊ̯] or, carefully, [ˈpʰuː(w)ʊ(ː)]
stale: /ˈstel/ > [ˈs̻t̻e(ː)ɯ̞̯]
dale: /ˈdel/ > [ˈd̥e(ː)ɯ̞̯]
stole: /ˈstol/ > [ˈs̻t̻o(ː)ʊ̯]
dole: /ˈdol/ > [ˈd̥o(ː)ʊ̯]

How on earth do you analyse your speech so carefully?

[ol bofosh]

real [ɹʷˠɪəɫ]
deal [dɪəɫ]
cruel [kʰɹʷˠəʊɫ]
duel [ʤjəʊɫ]
steal [stɪəɫ]
peal [pʰɪəɫ]
stool [stəʊɫ]
pool [pʰəʊɫ]
stale [stɛɪəɫ]
dale [dɛɪəɫ]
stole [stəʊɫ]
dole [dəʊɫ]

Found a new dipthong. [ɫ] really changes the dipthong for me I think. [ɫ] can also be changed to [w] or something similar, in relaxed speech.

[Davoush]

No variety of English has uvulars, especially not fucking syllabic epiglottalized uvular approximants.

I think you'll find your mistaken. Some older speakers around Tyneside and Country Durham have a uvular. Otherwise known as the "Northumbrian Burr".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northumbrian_Burr

Apparently some Irish dialects have/had a uvular too.

real [ɹijəl]
deal [dijəl]
cruel [kɾʉ:l]
duel [ʤʉ:l]
steal [stijəl]
peal [pʰijəl]
stool [stʉ:l]
pool [pʰʉ:l]
stale [stɛjəl]
dale [dɛjəl]
stole [stəʊl]
dole [dəʊl]

[Travis B.]

How on earth do you analyse your speech so carefully?

First, I base it heavily off how I articulate various sounds and not just how those sounds sound themselves, which allows transcribing sounds more accurately than if I did it only by how they sounded. (Doing it by articulation also allows checking how things are pronounced without having to say them out loud, even though naturally there are some things that cannot be checked this way, such as voicing. But then, even voicing I often check based on the articulation for its phonation rather than merely based on how it sounds audibly.)

Second, from repeatedly testing all kinds of cases I build up a phonological model of my own idiolect (and also add to it from listening to others' speech, particularly to take idiolectal variation into account); with this model I can typically figure out how I pronounce many individual words from their phonemes without having to exhaustively pronounce them over and over as I would have to if I did not have such a model.

(I still often will test a word's pronunciation when I am not completely certain, as there may still be areas in which said model, which is continually being added to, is still fuzzy.)

Third, when I find some point where my phonological model seems to differ from how I actually pronounce a word, I go back and modify the model to match, and then go and apply that newly modified model to all other words. (These often tend to be the more interesting cases, and then the big question I have to figure out is whether these are idiosyncratic to individual words, e.g. my vowel length variation in certain contracted words, or are broadly applicable, e.g. my tendency to drop /n/ outside of stressed onsets.)

Fourth, I am able to make myself pronounce words in a range of registers, so I can deduce a wide range of differing pronunciations, rather than focusing on careful pronunciations as many are apt to.

[Travis B.]

Interesting. So far, no one seems to preserve the historical pattern here, but rather everyone has some kind of leveling going on.

[ol bofosh]

Interesting. So far, no one seems to preserve the historical pattern here, but rather everyone has some kind of leveling going on.

What does levelling mean? That the different phones are sort of "sliding" towards each other?