The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

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makvas
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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by makvas »

hydrogen: [ˈhɑj.dʒɹɨ.dʒn̩]
nitrogen: [ˈnɑj.tʃɹɨ.dʒn̩]
direct: [dɹ̩ˈɹɛk̚tʰ]

(all the caveats about "[ɹ]" implied)

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Ser »

How do you pronounce "caveat"?

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

caveat: /ˈkɛviˌat/ > [ˈkʰɛːvˌjaʔ], carefully [ˈkʰɛːviːˌaʔ]
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Risla »

I am terrible at giving transcriptions of my own speech because I always observersparadox the fuck out of myself, but here goes:

I seem to have something like [ˈɑːβijɨs] for "obvious," although the [β] is almost labiodental; my bottom lip is consistently pulled back too far to really be [β], but the frication is clearly bilabial.

hydrogen: [ˈhəe̯ɖʐɨdʒɪn]
nitrogen: [ˈnəe̯ʈʂɨdʒɪn]
direct: [ɖʐɻ̩ˈɛkt]

Actually I've noticed that none of my obstruents ever seem to really be voiced, so even in positions where aspiration isn't traditionally it ends up being a contrast between unaspiration and weak aspiration, but I'll just mark it as a voicing contrast since the weak aspiration is not comparable to the strong aspiration in other positions.

Note that when I say I say [s] and [z] I never actually mean alveolar fricatives, rather the weird palatal sibilants (not [ɕ ʑ]) that I have in those positions due to a speech impediment (which I can try to describe, if anyone cares; IPA seems entirely insufficient for pinpointing what it is, though).

How about these words?:

guests
guess
get
again
gelding
Gettysburg
Last edited by Risla on Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Skomakar'n »

Risla wrote:hydrogen: [ˈhəe̯ɖʐɨɪn]
nitrogen: [ˈnəe̯ʈʂɨdʒɪn]
direct: [ɖʐɻ̩ˈɛkt]
WTF? Where are you from?
Online dictionary for my conlang Vanga: http://royalrailway.com/tungumaalMiin/Vanga/

#undef FEMALE

I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688

Of an Ernst'ian one.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Risla »

Minnesota.

I appear to have typoed the first word though, that should be [ˈhəe̯ɖʐɨdʒɪn]. Fixing that now.

I can provide recordings if you don't believe me. :P

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Skomakar'n »

Risla wrote:Minnesota.

I appear to have typoed the first word though, that should be [ˈhəe̯ɖʐɨdʒɪn]. Fixing that now.

I can provide recordings if you don't believe me. :P
Yeah, I'd love to hear that. I tried to pronounce the above word myself, having forgotten which word it was, I couldn't guess what it was at all. I had to scroll back up and check.
Online dictionary for my conlang Vanga: http://royalrailway.com/tungumaalMiin/Vanga/

#undef FEMALE

I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688

Of an Ernst'ian one.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Risla »

Here you go.

My voice is kind of cracky at this time of night, sorry about that.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Nortaneous »

much broader transcription than usual because lazy

[haɛ̯ɖɹədʒɪn] (don't think I have affrication here for some reason, but that could be observer effect)
[nʌi̯tʃɹədʒɪn]
[dɚ.ɛkt]
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by finlay »

Nortaneous wrote:
finlay wrote:Still reckon that the pronunciation with in 'obvious' is some kind of spelling pronunciation.

eh?
Wiktionary wrote:From Latin obvius (“being in the way so as to meet, meeting, easy to access, at hand, ready, obvious”) < ob- (“before”) + via (“way”).

Um, yeah, etymology, whatever. Like the word 'often', I was under the impression that most people had lost the /[t]. Like if someone says /ɒbviəs/ or /ɒftən/, to me it sounds like they're a. putting extra emphasis on the word, b. trying too hard and c. being a pretentious git. So... yeah.

Or maybe I'm the pretentious git, I dunno. It's worth noting that the pronunciation without b/t is the one that I'd teach to foreign learners.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Nortaneous »

I've never heard "obvious" without /b/

but I'm the only person under 30 I know who doesn't have /t/ in "often", so...
Siöö jandeng raiglin zåbei tandiüłåd;
nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by finlay »

Not that foreign learners wouldn't pick it up, of course, even if I taught them not to say those obstruents. It's very difficult to get them to dissociate spelling and pronunciation in their minds. I mean the number of Spanish speakers I've taught who still say [əd] for every past tense is mindboggling.

Even with learners who wouldn't use the Latin alphabet with their own language, come to think of it: there was an old Chinese lady that I was teaching the other week, and I can't remember what the word was, but I realised that she wasn't copying how I said it, she was only sort of copying it, because her pronunciation was based on the spelling – you know, it had a silent or unusually pronounced letter, or whatever. By the time I thought to cover up the spelling and get her to repeat again, she'd already internalised the bad pronunciation.

----
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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by ---- »

guests [gɛst͡s]
guess [gɛs]
get [gɪʔ]
again [əgɛn]
gelding [gɛɫdɪŋ]
Gettysburg [gɛɾizbɝˤg̊]

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by finlay »

hydrogen [ˈhɜiɖʐɻədʒən] /haidrədʒən/
nitrogen [ˈnɜiʈʂɻədʒən] /naitrədʒən/
direct [dəˈɻʷɛʔk̚t] /dərɛkt/ (or /dɪrɛkt/ or occasionally /dairɛkt/ [ˌdɑɪ.ˈɹʷɛʔk̚t] – I'm not sure offhand of the rules regarding the distribution of long i and short i imd) – it's definitely /dər/ rather than /dr/, anyway, since I don't tend to affricate it like other /dr/ clusters.

caveat [ˈkʰavi.aʔ] /kaviat/

guests [g̊ɛsː] or [g̊ɛsts] /gɛsts/
guess [g̊ɛs] /gɛs/
get [g̊ɛʔ] /gɛt/
again [əgɛn] or possibly something like [gːɛn] or [gɛn] /əgɛn/
gelding [ˈg̊ɛɫdɪŋ] /gɛldɪŋ/
Gettysburg [ˈg̊ɛtizb̥ɚːg̊] /gɛtizbərg/

ofc the devoiced plosives will voice intervocalically and vary a bit with full-voiced plosives anyway. Gelding and Gettysburg don't have common/connected speech equivalents as such because they're uncommon words.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Izambri »

often ['ɒfən]

Not sure about [ɒ]. It's some kind of [ɔ] tending towards [a] or [ə]. But it doesn't matter, my English is a festival of words with changing vowels day by day.
Un llapis mai dibuixa sense una mà.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Skomakar'n »

Risla wrote:Minnesota.

I appear to have typoed the first word though, that should be [ˈhəe̯ɖʐɨdʒɪn]. Fixing that now.

I can provide recordings if you don't believe me. :P
That's not too weird. Pretty important typo, haha.
Online dictionary for my conlang Vanga: http://royalrailway.com/tungumaalMiin/Vanga/

#undef FEMALE

I'd love for you to try my game out! Here's the forum thread about it:
http://zbb.spinnwebe.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=36688

Of an Ernst'ian one.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Avjunza »

Image: Onusanre, Onuconra
Tã he ccanusco.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by äreo »

I'll add my pronunciations of all those later when I can; for now I'll just say: /ɒftən/ is the most annoying string of phonemes I have ever heard.

Ascima mresa óscsma sáca psta numar cemea.
Cemea tae neasc ctá ms co ísbas Ascima.
Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Hakaku »

I remember going to Japan and having a friend ask me how to pronounce 'often' and being baffled at how his teacher (also a Canadian, but I don't know from where) told them to never pronounce it. But then, that teacher also told them they should pronounce 'again' as [@geIn], so I doubt he was from around my corner. At least in Ottawa, I've never really heard anyone here pronounce /ɒftən/ 'often' without the 't' or /ɒbviəs/ 'obvious' without a noticeable 'b' (at most, it might reduce to [ʋ] in rapid speech). And 'again' for me is [əgɛn].

To provide some others:

interest [ˈɪn.tʃɹɛst], [ˈɪn.tʃɹəst]
interesting [ˈɪn.tʃɹɛstiŋ], [ˈɪn.tʃɹəstiŋ], [ˈɪn.təɹɛstiŋ], [ˈɪ.nəɹɛstiŋ]
history [ˈhɪstəɹi], [ˈhɪstʃɹi]
historical [ˈhɪstɔːɹɪkɫ̩]
mystery [ˈmɪstəɹi], [ˈmɪstʃɹi]
mysterious [ˈmɪstɪɹjəs], [ˈmɪstiːɹjəs]
house n. [ˈhaʊs] v. [ˈhaʊz]
home [hoʊm]
mirror [ˈmɪɹɚ]
nearer [ˈniɹɚ]
co(-)ordinate n. [ˈkʰo.ɔɹɾɪnɨʔ] v. [ˈkʰo.ɔɹɾɪneɪʔ]
citizen ['sɪɾɪzɪn]
pathway ['pæθweɪ]
century [ˈsɛntʃɹɪ], [ˈsɛntʃəɹɪ]
centurion [sɛnˈtʃʊːɹiən]
restaurant [ˈɹɛstəɹɒ˜ʔ], [ˈɹɛstʃɹɒ˜ʔ]
Chances are it's Ryukyuan (Resources).

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by adder »

/'ɪnt͡ʃɹəst/ for interest
/'ɪnt͡ʃɹəstiŋ/ for interesting
/'hɪst͡ʃɹɪ/ for history
/'hɪst͡ʃɹɪk(ŏ)ɫ/ for historical
/'mɪst͡ʃɹi/ for mystery, /'mɪstərɪ/ for BrE/
/mɪ'stɪeɹɪes/ for mysterious
/haʊs/ for house
/həʊm/ for home
/'mɪɹɚ/ for mirror, /'mɪɹə/ for BrE
/'niɹɚ/ for nearer, /'niɹə/ for BrE
/'kɔ:ɹdɪnɪt/ for co-ordinate,/ kəʊ'ɔ:dɪnət/ for BrE
/'sɪtɪz(ə)n/ for citizen
/'pæθweɪ/ for pathway, /pɑ:θ-/ for BrE
/'sɛnt͡ʃ(ə)ɹɪ/ for century
/sɛn't͡ʃʊərɪən/ for centurion

And for BrE I would change all /-tʃɹ-/ to /-tɹ-/. I guess it seems less colloquial that way.

I didn't check it this time with my dictionary so it might look strange and to be honest I'm not really sure if I got everything right with the IPA.

How about <constitution>? I noticed I pronounce it /kɒnsɪ'tʃʉʃən/. I know it's a shortcut and /ʉ/ is a result of the preceding /t͡ʃ/. My dictionary has /kɒnstɪ'tju:ʃən/ or /kɒnstə'tju:ʃən/, but I would put /j/ after /t/ and /ə/ between /ʃ/ and /n/. With /j/ after /t/ it's more international English and otherwise AmE IMHO but I'm no expert in this field. And well, my pronunciation would be somewhere along these lines: /kɒnstɪ'tju:ʃən/ if I were to give a speech but I don't care in everyday situations.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Astraios »

adder wrote:And for BrE I would change all /-tʃɹ-/ to /-tɹ-/.
Don't do this, it sounds completely wrong.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by AnTeallach »

adder wrote:/'pæθweɪ/ for pathway, /pɑ:θ-/ for BrE
BrE can have either, of course, though BrE speakers who have "/æ/" there will usually realise it as [a].
How about <constitution>? I noticed I pronounce it /kɒnsɪ'tʃʉʃən/. I know it's a shortcut and /ʉ/ is a result of the preceding /t͡ʃ/. My dictionary has /kɒnstɪ'tju:ʃən/ or /kɒnstə'tju:ʃən/, but I would put /j/ after /t/ and /ə/ between /ʃ/ and /n/. With /j/ after /t/ it's more international English and otherwise AmE IMHO but I'm no expert in this field. And well, my pronunciation would be somewhere along these lines: /kɒnstɪ'tju:ʃən/ if I were to give a speech but I don't care in everyday situations.
Phonemically /kɒnstɪ'tju:ʃən/, but /s/ after /n/ is [ts], and /tj/ is an apical [tʃ].

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by adder »

Astraios wrote:
adder wrote:And for BrE I would change all /-tʃɹ-/ to /-tɹ-/.
Don't do this, it sounds completely wrong.
I know /-tʃɹ-/ is by no means wrong in BrE and it's not some American standard. I just thought /-tɹ-/ was kind of supercorrect, i.e. something that dictionaries would give. :) I just didn't want to sound like someone uneducated in situations when you have to show your language abilities e.g. when I took an IELTS test, I kept using a rhotic accent during the speaking part so there was no inconsequence. I know the recording of the conversation is analyzed in the UK, anyway I wonder if people who assessed my speaking ability really paid that much attention if I had been consequent (and while writing I try to keep the spelling American because there was a time I used to mix up both sets of spelling and that wasn't good for me myself so I decided to spell everything like it is in AmE),
AnTeallach wrote:BrE can have either, of course, though BrE speakers who have "/æ/" there will usually realise it as [a].
But it depends on the region, right? From what I remember <path> was taught to be pronounced with a back vowel, I mean that's how my teacher pronounced it in the middle-high school, she had finished English studies and she had a great pronunciation, I must say. And the British variant is the one taught in schools (grammar, e.g. "as if I was/were" and not "like I was/were", pronunciation, e.g.//'ɜ:li/ and not /'əɹli/, and spelling, e.g. learnt and not learned, spelt and not spelled, travelled and not traveled and so on). But sadly nobody really goes into such nuances like /ʌ/ vs. /ɑ/ or /ɔ/ vs. /ɒ/. And I'm sure 99% pupils leaving secondary school can't tell apart /æ/ and /ɛ/ (e.g. <cat> is pronounced by most /kɛt/). I'm to move to England in a matter of a few months and my pronunciation is definitely much closer to American rhotic than Received Pronunciation. Even though English has been a lingua franca for quite a lot of time in business, politics etc. and people care less and less about their pronunciation, I prefer to sound right as linguistics is my hobby right after chemistry. :)
AnTeallach wrote:Phonemically /kɒnstɪ'tju:ʃən/, but /s/ after /n/ is [ts], and /tj/ is an apical [tʃ].
That's too much for me (I'm a chemist ;)). I know what you mean but I simply can't give such detailed pronunciations. That's why I didn't use square brackets in this thread.. :mrgreen:

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Astraios »

adder wrote:I just thought /-tɹ-/ was kind of supercorrect, i.e. something that dictionaries would give.
Yes, but the fact that it's supercorrect doesn't mean you should do it. If anything, it will make any accent you may have sound less good, because we're so used to non-native speakers who say /tr/.

adder wrote:I just didn't want to sound like someone uneducated
There's no such thing as a set "uneducated accent". There is such a thing as a "really posh and upper-class educated-at-all-the-best-schools-don'cha-know accent", but no accent will sound uneducated if you say clever things with it. Also, the only accents that sound stereotypically lower-class are not likely to be ones that you have learnt anyway, so don't even bother trying to avoid speaking like them.

adder wrote:But it depends on the region, right? From what I remember <path> was taught to be pronounced with a back vowel
It really doesn't matter. The pronunciation with a central vowel is not stigmatized or uneducated-sounding in the slightest (unless you're making stupid jokes about Northerners vs. Southerners). If anything, it's a central vowel in more of the country than a back vowel.

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Re: The "How do You Pronounce X" Thread

Post by Travis B. »

Risla wrote:I am terrible at giving transcriptions of my own speech because I always observersparadox the fuck out of myself, but here goes:
My usual solution to this in the past, when I had been living in the Milwaukee area, was to essentially calibrate what I think I am saying against close observations of what others are saying, to see how well they apply to others' speech. I would simultaneously look for features in their speech which may differ from those in mine. I still do this some, but it is harder to do because most of my contact with people back there these days is over the phone or over Skype except in the short but regular periods where I am back in Wisconsin. One key thing about observing others is that to do this well, others cannot know that their speech is being observed or otherwise they will change how they speak subconsciously in a way that will heavily skew the data one is trying to get from it; likewise, one cannot "test" how people say things by, say, saying things to them that would be expected to get a certain response that one wants to hear, as this will be obvious, and hence have this same result.

These days, as this is harder, I rely on more having gotten pretty good at being able to directly pronounce much of IPA except that involving clicks, implosives, stuff further back than uvular other than glottal stops and pharyngeal coarticulations, arbitrary tones, and various phonations, and also am not good with some laterals, other approximants and trills; this allows me to basically say what my transcriptions would actually sound like, which often allows me to catch subtle features where a transcription on the first try seems okay but turns out to not really be correct within the overall system by which I am transcribing things. In particular, this tends to often catch quantity and pitch accent that I had overlooked before, as my transcription will look right, but when actually said aloud directly will seem not quite right compared to a non-transcription-based pronunciation of the word represented. This is also useful when there are places where the model of my dialect's phonology that I have built up in my head does not actually match what I am actually saying, as my transcriptions often tend to reflect the former more than the latter, and hence this is useful to help find my transcription does not actually match my speech, which is useful not just for correcting the transcription but for finding points of phonology I had overlooked or cannot explain.

And to be entirely honest, I do rely a lot upon having a mostly sufficiently complete phonology of my own speech, and more loosely, of my dialect built up in my head, as that much of the time allows me to skip to transcribing without having to actually observe each sound I pronounce in a word individually. Instead, what I do most of the time is actually go back from the transcription and check it for errors against how I say things (see above), which may or may not result in corrections, with the rate of ones needing corrections having gone down over time as I have built up a more complete model of my own speech. Sometimes this does result in oopsies where I later realize I transcribed something wrong and go back and change my transcription after the fact; usually these are just simple errors on my part, but sometimes these are notable bits of phonology that I had not realized before and which hence needed to be added to my mental model of my phonology.
Risla wrote:hydrogen: [ˈhəe̯ɖʐɨdʒɪn]
nitrogen: [ˈnəe̯ʈʂɨdʒɪn]
direct: [ɖʐɻ̩ˈɛkt]
These are interesting, I must say, particularly the /tr/ and /dr/ articulation (like that in more conservative articulations thereof in my dialect, except that those preserve the retroflex approximant and keep the stop component alveolar).
Risla wrote:Actually I've noticed that none of my obstruents ever seem to really be voiced, so even in positions where aspiration isn't traditionally it ends up being a contrast between unaspiration and weak aspiration, but I'll just mark it as a voicing contrast since the weak aspiration is not comparable to the strong aspiration in other positions.
I assume by "obstruents" you mean plosives, as fricatives are never aspirated in English (or crosslinguistically for that matter), and fricatives are obstruents. For obstruents this kind of thing is pretty common in English dialects, and certainly so for mine in everyday speech (with stops being more likely to voice intervocalically than elsewhere, especially when not forming a stressed onset, but even then frequently being devoiced)

(You might also have some sort of fricative devoicing in places, such as in codas or particularly word-finally, as I do, but I have not heard of such showing up in a generalized fashion in any English variety; I for instance still preserve fricative voicing in onsets except if they are preceded by something that itself is voiceless.)
Risla wrote:Note that when I say I say [s] and [z] I never actually mean alveolar fricatives, rather the weird palatal sibilants (not [ɕ ʑ]) that I have in those positions due to a speech impediment (which I can try to describe, if anyone cares; IPA seems entirely insufficient for pinpointing what it is, though).
Are you referring potentially to laminal rather than apical articulations of [s] and [z] there, as that just might be something like what you refer to. (I am used to having both apical and laminal articulations thereof, with apical ones being "default" but laminal ones showing up in many environments allophonically.)
Risla wrote:How about these words?:
guests: /ˈɡɜsts/ > [ˈɡ̊ɜs̻ːː]* or, carefully, [ˈɡ̊ɜs̻t̻s̻]
guess: /ˈɡɜs/ > [ˈɡ̊ɜs]
get: /ˈɡɜt/ > [ˈɡ̊ɜʔ]
again: /əˈɡɜn/ > [əːˈɡ̊ɜ̃(ː)n] or, carefully, [əːˈɡɜ̃(ː)n]
gelding: /ˈɡɜldɪŋ/ > [ˈɡ̊ɜːɤ̯dɨ̃(ː)ŋ]
Gettysburg: /ˈɡɜtizˌbərɡ/ > [ˈɡ̊ɜ̂i̯z̥ˌb̥ʁ̩ˤːɡ̊] or, a bit more carefully, [ˈɡ̊ɜɾ̥iːz̥ˌb̥ʁ̩ˤːɡ̊]

* Contrast with guest: /ˈɡɜst/ > [ˈɡ̊ɜs̻ː] or [ˈɡ̊ɜs̻t̻]
Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.

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