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Bristel wrote:

Travis B. wrote:lose /luːz/ [ʟ̞uːs]~[ɰuːs]
loose /luːs/ [ʟ̞us]~[ɰus]
loser /ˈluːzər/ [ˈʟ̞uːzʁ̩(ː)]~[ˈɰuːzʁ̩(ː)]
ate /eɪt/ [eʔ]~[eʔt]

You have a marked labialization?

What are you referring to here? (None of the above consonants are labialized.)

Travis B. wrote:

Bristel wrote:

Travis B. wrote:lose /luːz/ [ʟ̞uːs]~[ɰuːs]
loose /luːs/ [ʟ̞us]~[ɰus]
loser /ˈluːzər/ [ˈʟ̞uːzʁ̩(ː)]~[ˈɰuːzʁ̩(ː)]
ate /eɪt/ [eʔ]~[eʔt]

You have a marked labialization?

What are you referring to here? (None of the above consonants are labialized.)

I suspect he's asking about your non-lateral realization of /l/. I'm curious, too, as this isn't a feature I recall hearing in an American accent before.

Zaarin wrote:

Travis B. wrote:

Bristel wrote:

Travis B. wrote:lose /luːz/ [ʟ̞uːs]~[ɰuːs]
loose /luːs/ [ʟ̞us]~[ɰus]
loser /ˈluːzər/ [ˈʟ̞uːzʁ̩(ː)]~[ˈɰuːzʁ̩(ː)]
ate /eɪt/ [eʔ]~[eʔt]

You have a marked labialization?

What are you referring to here? (None of the above consonants are labialized.)

I suspect he's asking about your non-lateral realization of /l/. I'm curious, too, as this isn't a feature I recall hearing in an American accent before.

Lateralness of initial or stressed onset /l/ not in cluster is somewhat unstable IMD, varying between [ʟ̞], [ɰʟ̞], and [ɰ]. Note that lateralness of /l/ in all other positions except when geminate (where it is [ʟ̞ː]), including in onset clusters (e.g. /pl bl kl gl fl sl/), is generally lost IMD, resulting in [ɰ~w] before vowels, [ɯ̞̯~ʊ̯~ɤ̯~o̯] between and after vowels, and [ɯ̞~ʊ] when syllabic, with realizations varying depending on adjacent vowels and semivowels.

what i hear is /kɔɫtʃə/, /lœv/ and wɔmən/ but i'm not a native speaker and most non-natives will pronounce love as /lɒv/ or something. is it the 'l' sound that causes the confusion. i'm pretty sure the /ɔ/ in woman is just to make the vowel more distinct from the 'w'.enlighten me guys

I live on the west coast of North America, and I pronounce those words [ˈkʌɫ.t͡ʃɹ̩], [lʌv], and [ˈwə.mn̩]

Midland American (influenced by Northern Cities shift). [kʰəɫ.tʃɻ ɫəv wʊ.mn̩]. Rhotic in culture is retracted or retroflex, with no or light pharyngealization and no or light rounding. Love is velarized or uvularized but less so than syllabic or coda /l/ (the latter of which can lose alveolar contact entirely). As far as I can tell, the HUT vowel and schwa are entirely merged in my dialect.

SE England and I have [ˈkʰɐɫ.tʃɜ lɐv ˈwʏ.mən]

Inland North and I have [ˈkʰʌɤ̯tɕʁ̩(ː) ʟ̞ʌːf~ɰʌːf ˈwʊ̃ːmɘ̃(ː)n].

If it's not clear, I'm pretty sure the four of us who've posted agree on /kʌltʃər/ /lʌv/ /wʊmən/ (maybe /wʊmɨn/ for Travis) in broad transcription.

If someone here can properly pronounce the city of Shawano, WI I will give them a cookie. I live around the corner from this city but it's not anywhere near as logical as it seems it should be.

These sorts of place name troubles are everywhere. For example, yesterday I was in Beloit, WI. I had to Google how to say that one, it was in no way obvious. I often drive by Peotone, IL. I still do not have a clue on that one.

vokzhen wrote:If it's not clear, I'm pretty sure the four of us who've posted agree on /kʌltʃər/ /lʌv/ /wʊmən/ (maybe /wʊmɨn/ for Travis) in broad transcription.

I agree with our broad transcription; note that I consider [ə ɘ] in unstressed syllables to be allophones in my dialect (with [ɘ] in stressed syllables being a separate phoneme, mapping to /ɪ/).

Viktor77 wrote:If someone here can properly pronounce the city of Shawano, WI I will give them a cookie. I live around the corner from this city but it's not anywhere near as logical as it seems it should be.

I am pretty sure you pronounce Shawano as [ʃəːˈwɒ̃ːno(ː)].

Sho 'nuff.

Travis B. wrote:

Viktor77 wrote:If someone here can properly pronounce the city of Shawano, WI I will give them a cookie. I live around the corner from this city but it's not anywhere near as logical as it seems it should be.

I am pretty sure you pronounce Shawano as [ʃəːˈwɒ̃ːno(ː)].

Actually, /SO.noU/. It shocked me when I first heard it on the news.

Viktor77 wrote:

Travis B. wrote:

Viktor77 wrote:If someone here can properly pronounce the city of Shawano, WI I will give them a cookie. I live around the corner from this city but it's not anywhere near as logical as it seems it should be.

I am pretty sure you pronounce Shawano as [ʃəːˈwɒ̃ːno(ː)].

Actually, /SO.noU/. It shocked me when I first heard it on the news.

Apparently, the etymon is Chippewa zhaawanong "south.LOC". So I imagine this was borrowed as */'ʃawəno:/ or */'ʃɔwəno:/ with subsequent deletion of the medial syllable.

Some towns or cities in Wisconsin have local pronunciations for their names that even most other Wisconsinites are not familiar with. E.g. Waukesha and Racine, which to most Wisconsinites are /ˈwɔkɨʃɔ/ and /rəˈsin/ respectively but which to people from there are /ˈwɔkiʃɔ/ and /reɪˈsin/ respectively IIRC.

Those examples still are not nearly as marked as Shawano, though.

Travis B. wrote:Some towns or cities in Wisconsin have local pronunciations for their names that even most other Wisconsinites are not familiar with. E.g. Waukesha and Racine, which to most Wisconsinites are /ˈwɔkɨʃɔ/ and /rəˈsin/ respectively but which to people from there are /ˈwɔkiʃɔ/ and /reɪˈsin/ respectively IIRC.

That's interesting about "Racine". There's a street of that name in Chicago and everyone says it /reɪˈsin/, to the point where it hadn't occurred to me that there might be another way to pronounce it.

There are a lot of street-level shibboleths in Chicago and other big cities. Like everyone here knows that Devon takes final stress, but people from outside the neighbourhood might not know that Thome is bisyllabic. For funsies, I was spelling out St Louis street names to a friend the other day see if she could get them right. If anyone else wants to take a shot, my examples were:

Bonhomme
Chouteau
DeBaliviere
Delmar
Dodier
Gratiot
Gravois
Leonor K. Sullivan Memorial Boulevard
Meramec
Spoede
Tholozan

To which I'll add these names of neighbours/suburbs:

Carondelet
Creve Coeur
Des Peres
Sauget

Travis B. wrote:Some towns or cities in Wisconsin have local pronunciations for their names that even most other Wisconsinites are not familiar with. E.g. Waukesha and Racine, which to most Wisconsinites are /ˈwɔkɨʃɔ/ and /rəˈsin/ respectively but which to people from there are /ˈwɔkiʃɔ/ and /reɪˈsin/ respectively IIRC.

Those examples still are not nearly as marked as Shawano, though.

Is Kewaunee another one of these? I swear I heard /kE.wO'.ni/ and then the news will use /ki.wO'.ni/. The first is rather awkward for me. I didn't even realize I was mispronouncing Racine all this time. I always just said [r{'.sin]. Waukesha I initially pronounced [wO'.ki.S@] so I can see why the locals might have where others have . On a slightly different note, due to the number of syllabes a lot of people butcher the pronunciation of where I currently live, Manitowoc. It's the /nI/ followed by the /t@/ that people just swallow.

Linguoboy might very well have hit the nail on the head with Shawano. It certainly goes down for me as one of the more perplexing place names I've come across.

Some fun Michigan ones that I doubt people not from Michigan, or at least not from the Great Lakes area, could properly pronounce:

Sault Ste. Marie
Mackinac Island
Tawas
Presque Isle
Sebewaing
Beulah
Keweenau

With very simple phonemic transcriptions;
/su'.seIn?.m@.ri/
/m{'.kI.nO/
/taU'.was/
/prEs.kil'/
/si'.b@.w{N/
/bju.l@'/ (sound as in pew if I transcribed it correctly)
/ki'.wI.nO/ (orthography is aruably backwards)

Arizona also has some good ones. I had to rote learn the pronunciations of Tucson, Casa Grande, Prescott, Tempe, and Nogales.

Another one that always irked me, Spokane. Why can't it be /spoU.keIn'/? /spoU.k{n'/ is hideous to me.

And my personal favorite: Charlevoix.

Viktor77 wrote:Another one that always irked me, Spokane. Why can't it be /spoU.keIn'/? /spoU.k{n'/ is hideous to me.

French transcription maybe? IIRC, the first White people in the area were French fur traders.

You also see spellings like this in Ireland, e.g. "Strabane" /strəˈbæn/. (Irish An Srath Bán where bán represents [̍bɑːn̪ˠ])

linguoboy wrote:

Viktor77 wrote:Another one that always irked me, Spokane. Why can't it be /spoU.keIn'/? /spoU.k{n'/ is hideous to me.

French transcription maybe? IIRC, the first White people in the area were French fur traders.

You also see spellings like this in Ireland, e.g. "Strabane" /strəˈbæn/. (Irish An Srath Bán where bán represents [̍bɑːn̪ˠ])

That's a good point. I have no real evidence to offer further.

alynnidalar wrote:And my personal favorite: Charlevoix.

I always thought this one was odd, too. It preserved the beautiful French pronunciation of Charle but then diverged into a hideous pronunciation of voix as /voI/.

But then I was listening to the Minneapolis news one day in the Twin Cities and they said the St. Croix River /kroI/. And as mentioned earlier, Beloit is /b@.loIt'/. So it could be a commonly attested pronunciation of French oi(x) in American English, at least in the Midwest.

/b@.loIt'/

Wow, a palatalized alveolar stop in English?

Some from my area:

Maryland (of course)
Bowie
Montgomery
Youghiogheny
Allegheny
Potomac
Taneytown
Havre de Grace
Mount Rainier
Ellicott City
Wicomico
Lancaster
Nyack
Worcester
Annapolis
Monocacy
Loudoun
Dover

ˈmer(ɨ)lən(d)
ˈbu.i
ˌmʌŋˈgʌm(ə)ri
ˈjɑkəˌgeni
ˈæləˌgeni
pəˈtomɪk
ˈtɔniˌtæun
ˈhævər dɪ ˈgres
maunt rɪˈnir
ˈɛlɪkət ˈsɪti
wɪˈkɑmɪˌko
ˈleəŋkəstər
ˈnaiˌæk
ˈwʊstər
əˈnæpəlɪs
məˈnɑkəsi
læudən
ˈdovər

I'm not sure about 'Kittamaqundi' or 'Muirkirk', although I think I've heard [ˈmirˌkɚk] for that second one. Old pronunciation guides give [mjur-]; if I'm not misremembering, could be [mjur-] > [mjər-] > [mir-].

Pole, the wrote:

/b@.loIt'/

Wow, a palatalized alveolar stop in English?

Damn it, I'm sloppy. I forgot where the accent mark went in the order of things.

Nortaneous wrote: Bowie

This one is just weird. I thought you were just going to say it's /aU/ instead of say typical /o/ but nope. That was surprising.

Viktor77 wrote:

Travis B. wrote:Some towns or cities in Wisconsin have local pronunciations for their names that even most other Wisconsinites are not familiar with. E.g. Waukesha and Racine, which to most Wisconsinites are /ˈwɔkɨʃɔ/ and /rəˈsin/ respectively but which to people from there are /ˈwɔkiʃɔ/ and /reɪˈsin/ respectively IIRC.

Those examples still are not nearly as marked as Shawano, though.

Is Kewaunee another one of these? I swear I heard /kE.wO'.ni/ and then the news will use /ki.wO'.ni/. The first is rather awkward for me. I didn't even realize I was mispronouncing Racine all this time. I always just said [r{'.sin]. Waukesha I initially pronounced [wO'.ki.S@] so I can see why the locals might have where others have . On a slightly different note, due to the number of syllabes a lot of people butcher the pronunciation of where I currently live, Manitowoc. It's the /nI/ followed by the /t@/ that people just swallow.

I am familiar with the pronunciation /kiˈwɔni/ of Kewaunee, but I would not be surprised by /kɨˈwɔni/ for it either.

Manitowoc /ˈmænɨtəˌwɔk/ is easy for me to pronounce, since it patterns partially along with Oconomowoc /oʊˈkɑnəməˌwɔk/ (whose name is a shibboleth), which even though I only moved there recently is right in the greater metropolitan area where I grew up.

Viktor77 wrote:Linguoboy might very well have hit the nail on the head with Shawano. It certainly goes down for me as one of the more perplexing place names I've come across.

Some fun Michigan ones that I doubt people not from Michigan, or at least not from the Great Lakes area, could properly pronounce:

Sault Ste. Marie
Mackinac Island
Tawas
Presque Isle
Sebewaing
Beulah
Keweenau

With very simple phonemic transcriptions;
/su'.seIn?.m@.ri/
/m{'.kI.nO/
/taU'.was/
/prEs.kil'/
/si'.b@.w{N/
/bju.l@'/ (sound as in pew if I transcribed it correctly)
/ki'.wI.nO/ (orthography is aruably backwards)

Of these I only know Sault Ste. Marie and Mackinac Island.

Viktor77 wrote:Arizona also has some good ones. I had to rote learn the pronunciations of Tucson, Casa Grande, Prescott, Tempe, and Nogales.

Another one that always irked me, Spokane. Why can't it be /spoU.keIn'/? /spoU.k{n'/ is hideous to me.

Of these I only know Tucson and Spokane.