zompist bboard

Conversely, in the English here, historical /ʊr/ tends to be tensed to /ur/ except for in very few words (e.g. Moorland Rd. here in the Milwaukee area being an example that comes to mind) where it becomes /ɔr/, except when preceded by /j/ or a consonant palatalized by historical /j/, as /jʊr/ normally becomes /jər/ outside of careful speech, wherein it may be tensed to /jur/, except for your and you're, which when careful are /jɔr/.

Travis B. wrote:Conversely, in the English here, historical /ʊr/ tends to be tensed to /ur/ except for in very few words (e.g. Moorland Rd. here in the Milwaukee area being an example that comes to mind) where it becomes /ɔr/, except when preceded by /j/ or a consonant palatalized by historical /j/, as /jʊr/ normally becomes /jər/ outside of careful speech, wherein it may be tensed to /jur/, except for your and you're, which when careful are /jɔr/.

This mostly goes for me, as well, except I do have /jʊr/ in both Uranus and Europe.

For me, "poor" is /pOr\/, "cure" is /kj3`/ and "manure" is /m@.nu.r\=/.

poor [pʰoː]
cure [cç̯ʷʉə̯~cç̯ʷɵə̯]
manure [mɨ̃ˈnʲʷʉə̯~mɨ̃ˈnʲʷɵə̯]

quagmire [ˈkʰʷwɔg̚ˌmɑe̯jɐ]
Cossack [ˈkʰɔsæʔ͡k̚]
Pogrom [ˈpʰɔgɹʷɔm]
Europe [ˈjʉːɹʷəʔ͡p̚]~[jʉːɹʷʔ͡p̚]
Uranus [jəˈɹʷæɪ̯nəs]
your anus [jəˈɹʷæɪ̯nəs]
your anus [ˈjoːˈɹʷæɪ̯nəs]
your [joːʳ] / [jəʳ]
poor [pʰoːʳ]
cure [ˈkçʉːwɐ] / [ˈkçʉːwəʳ]
manure [məˈnjʉːwɐ] / [məˈnjʉːwəʳ]

your anus: [jʁ̩ːˈẽːnɘs]
your anus: [ˈjɔːʁˌẽːnɘs]
poor: [ˈpʰu(ː)ʁ]
cure: [ˈkçʁ̩(ː)]~[ˈkçʉ̯u(ː)ʁ]
manure: [mɘ̃ːˈnʉ̯u(ː)ʁ]

Travis B. wrote:

linguoboy wrote:

Travis B. wrote:(And now I learn that pogrom is stressed on the second syllable...)

Initial stress seems common in the USA (and is what inspired this post), but I think you're the first person I've come across with initial stress and /ah/ rather than /ow/.

Mind you I have practically never heard this word spoken, but rather have always read it.

the rule for finding the proper stress in Russian loanwords is to take where you think it should be and put it anywhere else

Europe /"jO:r@p/
Uranus /j@"rejn@s/
your anus /j@"rejn@s/ (identical with Uranus) or, when speaking more carefully, /jO:"rejn@s/

cherubim
seraphim
nephilim

cherubim: [ˈtʃʰɛːʁəːˌbɘ̃(ː)m]
seraphim: [ˈsɛːʁəˌfɘ̃(ː)m]
nephilim: [ˈnɜfɯːˌɰɘ̃(ː)m]

draw
core
drawer (piece of furniture)
drawer (person who draws)
lawnmower

pʰoː
kʰjoː ~ kʰjɵː ~ kʰjʊ̈ə (the -ʊ̈ə is only in careful speech, same for manure)
məˈnjoː ~ məˈnjʊ̈ə
ˈtʃʰeɹ̠əbəm (short initial vowel - same as cherry rather than cheery)
ˈseɹ̠əfəm
ˈnefəɫəm
dʐɹ̠oː
kʰoː
dʐɹ̠oː
ˈdʐɹ̠oːɹ̠ə
ˈɫoːnmɐʊ̈wə

draw [ˈdɹɒː] ~ [ˈdɹɑː]
core [ˈkʰo̞ɚ̯]
drawer [ˈdɹɑɚ̯] ~ [ˈdɹo̞ɚ̯]
drawer [ˈdɹɒː.ɚ̯]
lawnmower [ˈlɒːmˌmo̞wɚ]

You didn't ask for more, but it's monosyllabic [ˈmo̞ɚ̯], unlike [ˈmo̞wɚ], which is always bisyllabic. The [o̞] in the latter is more fronted, but not as far forward as [ɵ̞]. Similarly, there's some affrication on /dr/, but nothing as pronounced as what I see transcribed as [dʒɹ] or [dɹ̝ɹ].

draw: [ˈtʃɻʁɒ(ː)]
core: [ˈkʰɔ(ː)ʁ]
drawer (piece of furniture): [ˈtʃɻʁɔ(ː)ʁ]
drawer (person who draws): [ˈtʃɻʁɒːʁ̩(ː)]
lawnmower: [ˈʟ̞ɒ̃ːmˌmoːwʁ̩(ː)]

Conlangery
[k̠ʰən̪ˈɫ̪an̠dʒəɹ̠ɘi̯]

conlangery [ˈkʰɔ̃ˌɫɛ̝̃ŋᵊɻʷi]
conlang [ˈkʰɔ̃ˌɫɛ̝̃ŋ]
conworld [ˈkʰɔ̃ˌwøʊ̯d̥]
constructed language [ˌkʰɔ̃ˈsʈʂ̯ɻʷɐk̚təd̥ ˈɫɛ̝̃ŋɡwɨdʒ̥̯]

conlangery: [ˈkʰãːnˌʟ̞ẽːŋʁ̩ːʁi(ː)]~[ˈkʰãːnˌɰẽːŋʁ̩ːʁi(ː)]~[ˈkʰãːʟ̞ˌʟ̞ẽːŋʁ̩ːʁi(ː)]
conlang: [ˈkʰãːnˌʟ̞ẽːŋ]~[ˈkʰãːnˌɰẽːŋ]~[ˈkʰãːʟ̞ˌʟ̞ẽːŋ]
conworld: [ˈkʰãːnˌwʁ̩ːɯ̯t]~[ˈkʰãːwˌwʁ̩ːɯ̯t] except before a sonorant, where then [ˈkʰãːnˌwʁ̩ːɯ̯d]~[ˈkʰãːwˌwʁ̩ːɯ̯d]
constructed language: [kʰn̩tˌɕtɕɻʁʌʔktɘːdˈʟ̞ẽːŋgwɘːtʃ]~[kʰn̩tˌɕtɕɻʁʌʔktɘːdˈɰẽːŋgwɘːtʃ]

[ɻʁ] is actually coarticulated, but the X-SAMPA to IPA converter I am using does not handle tie bars well.

[ˌkʰɔ̃ˈɫɛ̃ŋəɹ̠ɪi̯]
[ˈkʰɔ̃ɫɛ̃ŋ]
[ˈkʰɔ̃wɵɯ̯d̚]
[kʰə̃ˈstʂʰɹ̠ɐktəd̚ ˌɫɛ̃ŋgwədʒ] ~ [kʰə̃ˈʂtʂʰɹ̠ɐtːəd̚ ˌɫɛ̃ŋwədʒ̊]

conlang [ko̞nlæŋ~kʰɔnlæŋ]
conlangery [ko̞nlæŋːəɾi~kʰɔnlæŋːəɹ̠i]
conworld [ko̞nʋʷø̞̈ːld~kʰɔn̪wɜːl̪d̪]
constructed language [ko̞ns̪t̪ɾɐkt̪e̞d læŋwit͡ʃ~kʰɔnstɹ̠ɐkt̪əd læŋwid͡ʒ]

I've finally fully accepted that my pronunciations are really inconsistent, so I'm not sure if there's even any point in me posting in this thread at all. Like, I watched some shitty videos I've uploaded on Youtube and realised that my pronunciations of most words are literally so inconsistent that I can't go one minute without saying them differently.

PS: Am I the only one who feels weird pronouncing cherubim with /t͡ʃ/ rather than [kʰ]? The latter just feels more natural, probably because in Finnish the singular is kerubi, but also in all the source languages Latin, Greek and Hebrew it has a /k/.

Vlürch wrote:PS: Am I the only one who feels weird pronouncing cherubim with /t͡ʃ/ rather than [kʰ]? The latter just feels more natural, probably because in Finnish the singular is kerubi, but also in all the source languages Latin, Greek and Hebrew it has a /k/.

My pronunciation is really inconsistent here. I say cherubs with /t͡ʃ/ and cherubim with /k/, probably because the former feels fully naturalised (we even use it as slang around here to refer to highschool-age students) and the latter, with its foreign plural, feels only semi-assimilated.

linguoboy wrote:

Vlürch wrote:PS: Am I the only one who feels weird pronouncing cherubim with /t͡ʃ/ rather than [kʰ]? The latter just feels more natural, probably because in Finnish the singular is kerubi, but also in all the source languages Latin, Greek and Hebrew it has a /k/.

My pronunciation is really inconsistent here. I say cherubs with /t͡ʃ/ and cherubim with /k/, probably because the former feels fully naturalised (we even use it as slang around here to refer to highschool-age students) and the latter, with its foreign plural, feels only semi-assimilated.

[In the UK, there are at least some dialects that use "cherub" to mean "duck" (in the tag sense). Can't off-hand pinpoint which they are, though.]

For me, either /k/ or /tS/ in the plural; probably the latter more normally, and the former in more overtly religious, old-testamenty contexts, particularly when with other Hebrew words (eg in the phrase 'cherubim and seraphim', I might have /k/ sometimes).

Inspired by this thread, rat rap vs. rat trap (curious to know whether anyone has affricated /tr/?)


JAL

rat rap: [ˈʁʷɛʔˌʁʷɛʔp]~[ˈʁʷɛʔtˌʁʷɛʔp]
rat trap: [ˈʁʷɛʔˌtʃʰɻ͡ʁɛʔp]~[ˈʁʷɛʔtˌtʃʰɻ͡ʁɛʔp]

jal wrote:Inspired by this thread, rat rap vs. rat trap (curious to know whether anyone has affricated /tr/?)


JAL

Something like:

rat trap: [ɹʷæ̈t̚ tɕʷʰɹʷæ̈ɓ]
rat rap: [ɹʷæ̈ʔ ɹʷæ̈ɓ]

The main difference for me between the two is that in "rat trap", I actually pronounce the /t/, while in "rat rap", it's just a glottal stop. (virtually all of my word-final /t/s are glottal stops, unless I'm really trying to emphasize it or something)