zompist bboard

Anybody have voiced "th" in {anything},{everything},etc? I seem to have it at least in "anything" but can't be sure about saying the other unconsciously ..

also, i meant to post in the "thanks" subthread earlier but lost track of it. I dont have the voiced "th" there afaik, but Ive heard it. I think it may only occur for the interjection, not when used as a content word. perhaps subconsciously people think of it as a grammar word? but that wouldnt explain why some people do use the voiced "th" in all situations. this may or may not b related to the "anything" voicing.

Some famous names:
Joseph Stalin
Wilhelm Röntgen
Marie Skłodowska-Curie
Niels Bohr
Erwin Schrödinger
Gerard 't Hooft
Stanisław Ulam
Nikita Khrushchev
Enrico Fermi

Joseph Stalin [ˈʤəʊ̯sɪf ˈstɑɫɪn]
Wilhelm Röntgen [ˈwɪɫhɛɫm ˈrɒntgɛn] OR [ˈvɪɫhɛɫm ˈrœntgən]
Marie Skłodowska-Curie [məˈɹ̠ˁi ˈkʰʊɹ̠ˁi~ˈkʰjuɹ̠ˁi]
Niels Bohr [ˈniɫz ˈbɔɹ̠ˁ] (NB [ɔ] is not my CAUGHT vowel but a reduce /oː/ [əʊ̯] before a liquid)
Erwin Schrödinger [ˈɹ̩wɪn ʃɹ̠ˁəʊ̯diŋɹ̩~ʃɹ̠ˁœdiŋɹ̩]
Gerard 't Hooft -- I don't know this person, but probably [ʤəˈɹ̠ˁɑɹ̠ˁd tʰəˈhʊft]
Stanisław Ulam [stænɪˈsɫɑv ˈʊɫɑm] -- yes, I know how to pronounce Polish <ł>, but I'm not necessarily going to nativize that in English. :p
Nikita Khrushchev [nɪˈkʰiɾə ˈkʰɹ̠ˁʊsʧɛv~ˈkʰɹ̠ˁʊsʧɒf]
Enrico Fermi [ɛnˈɹ̠ˁikʰəʊ̯ ˈfeɹ̠ˁmi]

[ˈt͡ʃ⁼oʊsɛf ˈstäːlɪn]
[ˈvɪɬhɛɬm ɹœntgɛn]
[məˈɹiː skwəˈdoʊfska ˈkjɚːɹi]
[ˈnjiɨ̯lz ˈboʊɚ]
[ˈɚːwɪn ˈʃɹoʊdiŋgɚ]
[gɛɹaːɚ̯d hʊft]
[ˈstanɪswæːf ulam]
[nɪˈkitə kʰruʂt͡ɕɛv]
[ɛnˈɹiːkoʊ ˈfɚmi]

dʒəwsɨf stɑlɪn (-ɨn?)
vɪlhɛlm rɛntgən
mərij skwədɑvskə kjɜ˞rɨj
nijəls bor
ɜ˞wɪn ʃrejdɨŋər
dʒərɑrd tə huwft
stænɨslɑv uwlɑm (~ stənɪswəf, depending on register)
nəkijtə kruwʃtʃɛv
ɛnˈrijkəw fermɨj

(stress is unmarked when it falls on the first nonreduced vowel, which is almost always)

Joseph Stalin: [ˈtʃosəf ˈsʲtʲaːɯ̯ɘ̃(ː)(n)]
Wilhelm Röntgen: [ˈwɘɯ̯ˌhɜːɤ̯m ˈʁʷɜ̃ʔkːɘ̃(ː)(n)]
Marie Skłodowska-Curie: [mʁ̩ːˈʁʷi kʰj̊ʁ̩ːˈʁʷi(ː)]
Niels Bohr: [ˈniːɯ̯s ˈpɔ(ː)ʁ]
Erwin Schrödinger: [ˈʁ̩ːwɘ̃n ˈʃɻ͡ʁeːɾɘ̃ːŋʁ̩(ː)]
Gerard 't Hooft: [tɕʁ̩ːˈʁʷɑːʁt tʰəˈhuft]
Stanisław Ulam: [ˌsʲtʲɛ̃ːnɘˈsɰaf ˈuːɯ̯ɛ̃(ː)m]
Nikita Khrushchev: [nɘˈkʰiɾə ˈkʰɻ̊͡ʁ̥uɕtɕəːf]
Enrico Fermi: [ɘ̃ːnˈʁʷiko ˈfɛ̃ːʁ̃mi(ː)]

ˈd̪ʲɛ.gɔ kɾuˑl̪ wrote:Some famous names:
Joseph Stalin
Wilhelm Röntgen
Marie Skłodowska-Curie
Niels Bohr
Erwin Schrödinger
Gerard 't Hooft
Stanisław Ulam
Nikita Khrushchev
Enrico Fermi

/dZoUs@f stAlIn/
/vIlhElm r3ntdZ@n/
/m@"ri cjU@ri/
/nilz bO/
/3rwIn Sr3dIN@/
?
?
/nIkit@ krustSEv/ (or /U/)
/@nrikoU fE:rmi/

't Hooft and Ulam aren't people I hear about in ordinary conversation, and there are no standard protocols for dealing with Dutch or Polish names. [Dutch, in particular, gives people nightmares, as witness the trouble with Dutch footballers. After what felt like a decade, people still hadn't settled on a standard way to say 'Kuyt'...]

Funnily, the <'t> everybody seems to pronounce like [tʰə] is actually pronounced [ət] :). It's an abbreviation of <het> [ɦɛt]. And the double <oo> is best approximated by the GOAT vowel. I won't bother you with the Dutch pronunication of "Gerard" though :).


JAL

how about some languages and families?

indo-european
algonquian
japonic
korean
xhosa
cherokee
klingon
cad'inor
verdurian
english

Indo-European [ˌɪndəʊ̯ˈjʊɹ̠ˁəʊ̯ˌpʰiən]
Algonquian [æɫˈgɒŋkiɪn]
Japonic [ʤæˈpʰɑnɪk]
Korean [kʰɵˈɹ̠ˁiən]
Xhosa [ˈkʰəʊ̯sə]
Cherokee [ʧʰɛɹ̠ˁɵˈkʰi]
Klingon [ˈt͡ɬɪŋɑn ˈχol] -- I'm just kidding: [ˈkʰɫɪŋɑn]
English [ˈɪŋgɫɪʃ]

indo-european /ˌɪndoˌjɜrəˈpiən/ [ˈɪndoˌjəɹʷəˈpʰiən]
algonquian /ælˈgɑŋkwiən/ [aɫˈgɑŋkwiən]
japonic /dʒəˈpɑnək/ [dʒəˈpʰɑnɪʔk]
korean /kəˈriən/ [kʰəˈɹʷiən]
xhosa /ˈkosʌ/ [ˈkʰoʊsʌ~ə~ɐ]
cherokee /ˈtʃerəˌki/ [ˈtʃeɹʷəˌki]
klingon /ˈklɪŋən/ [ˈkʰlɪŋən]
cad'inor /ˈkæðəˌnor/ [ˈkʰæðəˌnoɹ] or maybe [ˈkʰæðn̩oɹ]?
verdurian /vərˈdɜriən/ [vɚˈdəɹʷiən]
english /ˈɪŋgləʃ/ [ˈɪŋglɪʃ]

Something like that, anyhow. I think /iən/ can be realized as [in̩], but I'm not completely sure. I didn't write vowel length or nasality in the phonetic transcriptions because I haven't really studied these aspects of my pronunciation very much (either through introspection or other types of analysis), and I assume I just have the expected patterns for those things.

I noticed something strange about my pronunciation of "peculiar": for the stressed vowel, I can use something that sounds to me like /ʊ/ ("/pəˈkjʊljər/") even though that's not a possibility for me in the names "Julia" or "Julian". Does this seem familiar to anyone else?

ˈdʒəʊ̈səf ˈstɐːɫən
ˈwɘɫəm ˈɹ̠ɵ̃ːʔgən
məˈɹ̠ɪi skʰwəˈdɔvskə kʰjəˈɹ̠ɪi
nɪːwz boː
ˈɵːwə̃ ˈʂɹ̠əʊ̈dɪŋə (ɘ → ɪ before ŋ or g)
gəˈɹ̠ɐːd̚ tʰəˈhoːft̚
ˈstɐnəsɫɐv ˈʊuɫɐm (ʊ̈ʉ → ʊu before ɫ, guessing with stress)
nəˈkʰɪiɾə ˈkʰɹ̠ʊ̈ʉʃɔv
enˈɹ̠ɪikʰəʊ̈ ˈfeːmɪi ~ ˈfɵːmɪi

ˌɘndəʊ̈jɵɹ̠əˈpʰɪijən
ɛʊˈgɔŋkʰwɪijən
dʒɛˈpʰɔnək̚ ~ dʒəˈpʰɔnək̚
kʰəˈɹ̠ɪijən
ˈkʰosɐ (or with a mangled lateral click if I'm feeling pretentious)
ˈtʃeːɹ̠əkʰɪi
ˈkʰɫɪŋɔn
ˈkʰɛðəno
vɵˈdʒoːɹ̠ɪijən ~ vɵˈdʒɵːɹ̠ɪijən
ˈɪŋɫəʃ (never with a stop)

does anyone say english with an /i/ and not an /ɪ/??

bbbosborne wrote:does anyone say english with an /i/ and not an /ɪ/??

If I remember correctly, David J. Peterson does. (I forget where he wrote about it, though.) A pronunciation with /i/ would be expected from any speaker who has the sound change ɪ → i / _ŋ, which seems to occur for certain speakers in the West and Midwest of the United States.

Indo-European: [ˌɘ̃ːndoːˌjʁ̩ːʁəˈpʰiːɘ̃(ː)(n)]
Algonquian: [ˌɛːɤ̯ˈɡãkwɘ̃(ː)(n)]
Japonic: [tʃəˈpʰãːɾ̃ɘʔk]
Korean: [kʰʁ̩ːˈʁʷiːɘ̃(ː)(n)]
Xhosa: [ˈkʰoːzə(ː)]
Cherokee: [ˈtʃʰɛːʁəˌkʰi(ː)]
Klingon: [ˈkʰʟ̞ɘ̃ːŋã(ː)(n)]~[ˈkʰɰɘ̃ːŋã(ː)(n)]
English: [ˈɘ̃ːŋɡʟ̞ɘʃ]~[ˈɘ̃ːŋɡɰɘʃ]

bbbosborne wrote:does anyone say english with an /i/ and not an /ɪ/??

I used to. In fact, I used to say something like [ʔiːŋgɭɪʃ] and I guess didn't stop until I got sick of my brother making fun of me for it all the time.

bbbosborne wrote:does anyone say english with an /i/ and not an /ɪ/??

Sporadically.

[ɹə̆ˈpʰoʊɚ̯dɪt̚li]
[ˈst͡ʃʰɻɑːŋg]
[ˈhæːnə]

bbbosborne wrote:[ˈst͡ʃʰɻɑːŋg]

An aspirated /t/ after /s/??


JAL

jal wrote:An aspirated /t/ after /s/??

seems so.

reportedly: [ʁʷəˈpʰɔʁɘːɾɰi(ː)], carefully [ʁʷiˈpʰɔʁɾɘːɾʟ̞i(ː)]
strong: [ɕtɕɻ͡ʁɒ̃(ː)ŋ]
Hannah: [ˈhɛ̃ːɾ̃ə(ː)]

This reminds me of my mom's friend Sarita saying [stʰajl] around 2:15 of this video. In that case, though, I believe it is one of several hyperforeignizations used by all the people speaking in the video (all of whom are friends of my mom's, which pretty much by definition means they're Malayalees here in Austin).

Vijay wrote:In that case, though, I believe it is one of several hyperforeignizations

Yes, I admit I have it myself sometimes, as aspiration is foreign to standard Dutch.


JAL

Then there is [wɘˈskãntsɘ̃(ː)(n)] versus [ˌwɘsˈkʰãntsɘ̃(ː)(n)] where idiolectal differences in stressing the first syllable of Wisconsin changes its syllabification and thus whether aspiration occurs or not.