zompist bboard

How about co-ordinate and laboratory?

I generally have [kʰɞˈwoɚdnəʔ] and [ˈlæbɹət(ə)ɹi]. I remember loving to say [ləˈboːɹətɔɹi] as a kid tho.

I'm wondering about the pronunciation of 'year'. I say /jIr/, but I have noticed quite a lot of /j@r/ (or something like that, anyway). Is this a real phenomenon and where does it occur?

Timmytiptoe wrote:I'm wondering about the pronunciation of 'year'. I say /yIr/, but I have noticed quite a lot of /y@r/ (or something like that, anyway). Is this a real phenomenon and where does it occur?

You most likely pronounce it /jɪr/ instead of /yɪr/... likewise, they are saying /jər/ not /yər/

I pronounce it /jiɹ̠ˤʷ/ to be unnecessarily precise.

Bristel wrote:

Timmytiptoe wrote:I'm wondering about the pronunciation of 'year'. I say /yIr/, but I have noticed quite a lot of /y@r/ (or something like that, anyway). Is this a real phenomenon and where does it occur?

You most likely pronounce it /jɪr/ instead of /yɪr/... likewise, they are saying /jər/ not /yər/

I pronounce it /jiɹ̠ˤʷ/ to be unnecessarily precise.

Err, oops.
Ok, going to fix that now.

Timmytiptoe wrote:I'm wondering about the pronunciation of 'year'. I say /jIr/, but I have noticed quite a lot of /j@r/ (or something like that, anyway). Is this a real phenomenon and where does it occur?

I've only heard the latter in really posh RP.

äreo wrote:

Timmytiptoe wrote:I'm wondering about the pronunciation of 'year'. I say /jIr/, but I have noticed quite a lot of /j@r/ (or something like that, anyway). Is this a real phenomenon and where does it occur?

I've only heard the latter in really posh RP.

In the really posh RP I heard it'd be [jəː]. Normally they'd say [jɪːə], wouldn't they? I can't recall ever having heard a rhotic form of RP. Does something like that exist?

coordinate (noun): [ˈkʰ(w)ɔːʁˤ(d)ɨ̃ːnɨʔ]~[ˈkʰ(w)ɔ̂ːʁˤnːɨʔ]*, carefully also [kʰoːˈwɔːʁˤ(d)ɨ̃ːnɨʔ]~[ˈkʰoːˈwɔ̂ːʁˤnːɨʔ]~[kʰəːˈwɔːʁˤ(d)ɨ̃ːnɨʔ]~[ˈkʰəːˈwɔ̂ːʁˤnːɨʔ]
coordinate (verb): [ˈkʰwɔːʁˤ(d)ɨ̃ːˌneʔ]~[ˈkʰwɔ̂ːʁˤnˌneʔ], carefully also [kʰoːˈwɔːʁˤ(d)ɨ̃ːˌneʔ]~[ˈkʰoːˈwɔ̂ːʁˤnˌneʔ]~[kʰəːˈwɔːʁˤ(d)ɨ̃ːˌneʔ]~[ˈkʰəːˈwɔ̂ːʁˤnˌneʔ]**
laboratory: [ˈʟ̞ɛːbɰˤəˌtʰɔːʁˤi(ː)]~[ˈɰɛːbɰˤəˌtʰɔːʁˤi(ː)]
year: [ˈjɪ(ː)ʁˤ]

* The pronunciations with [w] are my native ones, but at some point I picked up [w]-less pronunciations for the noun as well, and now freely vary between the two sets for it; this likely seems to be a more general phonological change that I picked up (but not extended to all words, e.g. the verb here), as I also started inconsistently dropping the [w] in quart and quarter as well.

** Interestingly enough, I seem to also use the careful pronunciations I mention above more frequently with coordinate the verb than with coordinate the noun.

Edit: Made a few fixes to some copy-and-paste mistakes in the IPA above.

Grunnen wrote:

äreo wrote:

Timmytiptoe wrote:I'm wondering about the pronunciation of 'year'. I say /jIr/, but I have noticed quite a lot of /j@r/ (or something like that, anyway). Is this a real phenomenon and where does it occur?

I've only heard the latter in really posh RP.

In the really posh RP I heard it'd be [jəː]. Normally they'd say [jɪːə], wouldn't they? I can't recall ever having heard a rhotic form of RP. Does something like that exist?

Well, I meant [jəː]. I just analysed it as /jər/.

äreo wrote:

Grunnen wrote:

äreo wrote:

Timmytiptoe wrote:I'm wondering about the pronunciation of 'year'. I say /jIr/, but I have noticed quite a lot of /j@r/ (or something like that, anyway). Is this a real phenomenon and where does it occur?

I've only heard the latter in really posh RP.

In the really posh RP I heard it'd be [jəː]. Normally they'd say [jɪːə], wouldn't they? I can't recall ever having heard a rhotic form of RP. Does something like that exist?

Well, I meant [jəː]. I just analysed it as /jər/.

Ah, okay.

Travis B. wrote:

finlay wrote:

Aiďos wrote:/ˈkloʊsəɹ, ˈkjuːnjɪfɔːɹm, ˈhɛəɹ, ˈhɜːɹ, ˈɛəɹ, ˈhoʊm, ˈboʊθ/ [ˈkʰɫ̥ö̞̜ʊsɰ̹̩˞, ˈk͡xʰjʉu̯ȵjɪ̞ˌfo̞ɰ̹˞m, ˈhe̞ɛ̯̈ɰ̹˞, ˈhˠɰ̹̩˞ˑ, ˈɛɛ̯̈ɰ̹˞, ˈhö̞̜ʊm, ˈbö̞̜ʊθ]. Don't Travicize me, this is completely true, this is the closest I can get to the x-canIPA (the limit of transcriptin, I believe, to go any further would mean having a different system for every mouth).

Dude, the problem is a. that this level of detail is rarely ever appropriate, even on a thread like this, since you're implying that you never pronounce these words any differently to this... and yet these are strictly the way that you pronounce them in isolation over and over... and b. that canIPA is a load of bullshit, but that's kinda by the wayside. It's not that I don't necessarily believe what you write.

To be honest... that makes my transcriptions seem simple... and often when I mark things in a rather complex fashion it is because I am marking different features simultaneously (e.g. some POA adjustment combined with nasalization and maybe also with non-syllabicity) rather than trying to exactly specify the POA of individual phones canIPA-esque-ly...

Read x-canIPA, not simple canIPA (an extension of this, a two-dimensional transcription which I am still trying to ASCIIfy). And I didn't pronounce them in isolation. I made a few sentences and averaged the transcriptions. The transcriptions i gave here are slightly more precise than canIPA in the consonants, the vowels far behind. (And I don't necessarily like the way canIPA handles consonants, especially sibilants).

coordinate (verb): [kʷɵɔɹʷˤdn̩eʔ]
coordinate (noun): [kʷɵɔɹʷˤdn̩ɨʔ]
laboratory: [ɫæbɹ̩ʷˤtʷɔɹʷˤi]
^These might be a little heavy on the diacritics but the labial spreading is probably somewhat phonologically relevant.
year: [jɪɜ˞ˤ]

Travis B. wrote:The pronunciations with [w] are my native ones, but at some point I picked up [w]-less pronunciations for the noun as well, and now freely vary between the two sets for it; this likely seems to be a more general phonological change that I picked up (but not extended to all words, e.g. the verb here), as I also started inconsistently dropping the [w] in quart and quarter as well.

there's a [w] in quart and quarter?

EDIT: also I love this thread

/koʊˈɔːɹdᶦnət, koʊˈɔːɹɾdᶦneɪt, ˈlæbᵊɹətri/ [kʰ̞o̝ˈo̠̞ɰ̹˞ɾ̃nɛ̈̃ˀt̚, kʰ̞o̝ˈo̠̞ɰ̹˞ɾ̃ˌne̞i̞ˀt̚, ˈɫæbɰ̹˞ɜ̹̆t͡ɻ̝̻̹̊ˠɰ̹˞ɪi]. Superscripts in the phonemic transcription only occur in careful speech and are not transcribed in the phonetic.

Theta wrote:coordinate (verb): [kʷɵɔɹʷˤdn̩eʔ]
coordinate (noun): [kʷɵɔɹʷˤdn̩ɨʔ]
laboratory: [ɫæbɹ̩ʷˤtʷɔɹʷˤi]
^These might be a little heavy on the diacritics but the labial spreading is probably somewhat phonologically relevant.
year: [jɪɜ˞ˤ]

I love narrow phonetic transcriptions myself; conversely, I tend to get rather annoyed with people who insist on phonemic transcriptions and/or only boringly broad phonetic transcriptions that seem like they are trying to be mere ciphers of phonemic ones.

Theta wrote:

Travis B. wrote:The pronunciations with [w] are my native ones, but at some point I picked up [w]-less pronunciations for the noun as well, and now freely vary between the two sets for it; this likely seems to be a more general phonological change that I picked up (but not extended to all words, e.g. the verb here), as I also started inconsistently dropping the [w] in quart and quarter as well.

there's a [w] in quart and quarter?

Certainly there is in my dialect (natively):

quart: [ˈkʰwɔʁˤʔ]
quarter: [ˈkʰwɔʁˤ(ɾ̥)ʁ̩ˤ(ː)]

While I started sporadically dropping the [w]s in those, those droppings are not exactly native per se.

Theta wrote:EDIT: also I love this thread

I love this sort of thing as well. Hopefully no one will kill the fun by acting like an angry chimpanzee about transcription practices.

how do you pronounce house, citizen and pathway

Umega wrote:how do you pronounce house, citizen and pathway

(n. /haʊs/) (v. /haʊz/), /'sɪtɪzən/, /'pæθweɪ/

for those of you who rhyme "mirror" and "nearer," how do you pronounce the first vowel of:

irrespective
irresponsible

and

irrational
irrevocable
edit: irradiate
?

Ran wrote:for those of you who rhyme "mirror" and "nearer," how do you pronounce the first vowel of:

irrespective
irresponsible

and

irrational
irrevocable
?

mirror [mɪɹ]
near [nɪɹ]
irrespective [ˌɪɹɨsˈpɛk̚tʰɪv]
irresponsible [ˌɪɹɨsˈpɑ̃nsɨbʟ̩]
irrational [ɨˈɹæʃn̩ɫ̩] ~ [ɹ̩ˈɹæʃɨ̃ɾ̃ʟ̩]
irrevocable [ˌɪɹɨˈvɑkʰəbʟ̩]

<closer> [ˈkə̥̯ɬ̬̞oo̯̝̟ɹ̝̥.z̞̩˞] and [ˈkə̥̯ɬ̬̞oo̯̝̟ɹ̝.z̞̩˞]. I'm surprised that some people don't differentiate these.

<coordinate> [kʰɵ̯ˈo˞dⁿ.n̩ˌeɪtʼ̚] and [ˈkʰʷo˞dⁿ.n̩.ɪtʼ̚].

<laboratory> [ˈlæːb̚]. I am a beautiful and unique snowflake.

mirror: [ˈmɪ(ː)ʁˤ]
near: [ˈnɪ(ː)ʁˤ]
nearer: [ˈnɪːʁˤʁ̩ˤ(ː)]
irrespective: [ɪːʁˤːɨˈs̻pɜʔk̚tɨːf]
irresponsible: [ɪːʁˤːɨˈs̻pãntsɨːbɯ̞(ː)]
irrational: [ɪːʁˤˈʁˤɛʃɨ̃ːnɯ̞(ː)]
irrevocable: [ɪːʁˤˈʁˤɜːvəɡ̊əːbɯ̞(ː)]*
irradiate: [ɪːʁˤˈʁˤeːɾiːˌeʔ]~[ɪːʁˤˈʁˤeːjːˌeʔ]

It is quite interesting, at least for me, that all of these irr- words have /ɪrr/ rather than just /ɪr/ in them for me. When trying to pronounce the words out from my transcriptions without geminates (as I had actually assumed the rr was merely orthographic), the words kept sounding off (especially in the cases of irrational, irrevocable, and irradiate), until I realized that they actually had geminates in them unlike what I had originally surmised.

* This transcription might seem weird, and indeed conflicts with the normal patterning of stressed and unstressed syllables I am used to in my dialect (as I am used to a rather neat alternation of (at least slightly) stressed and unstressed syllables (except for initial syllables always getting at least a bit of stress) as long as secondary stress or syllable loss do not come into play), but I am pretty sure there is [ɡ̊] rather than [k] in it, as when I tried replacing the /k/ with /g/, the resulting word sounded essentially identical except the vowel after /v/ got longer.

(I should also note that voiced plosives marked in my transcriptions are actually in free variation with regard to voicing in actual realization, even intervocalically, but I mark them as if they were voiced as they do not infrequently remain voiced, moreso in more careful speech and moreso if intervocalic, whereas the voiceless lenis plosives I mark will normally stay voiceless.)

Zumir wrote:@Travis B.: Thanks for clearing that up.

I forgot to mention earlier, but now have gone back and edited my post to mention that this whole voiceless lenis versus voiceless fortis thing actually applies to all obstruents, not just plosives; it is just most obvious and clear-cut with plosives, and people tend to distinguish the two in transcriptions most with them as well.

Bob Johnson wrote:<closer> [ˈkə̥̯ɬ̬̞oo̯̝̟ɹ̝̥.z̞̩˞] and [ˈkə̥̯ɬ̬̞oo̯̝̟ɹ̝.z̞̩˞]. I'm surprised that some people don't differentiate these.

wat

mirror: [miɹːʷˤ]
nearer: [niɹːʷˤ]
irrespective: [ʔɨɹʷˤɨs'pʰɛʔktɪv]
irresponsible: [ʔɨɹʷˤɨs'pʰantsɨbʟ̩]
irrational: [ʔɨɹʷˤ'æːʃn̩ɫ̩]
irrevocable: [ʔɨɹʷˤɨ'vɵːkəbʟ̩]
irradiate: [ʔɨɹʷˤ'eːðɪjeʔ] note that [ð] is alveolar and *not* interdental. I don't think there's actually a dedicated symbol for a non-sibilant alveolar fricative. I suppose I could write it [ɹ̝]. [ʔɨɹʷˤ'eːɹ̝ɪjeʔ]?

äreo wrote:How about co-ordinate and laboratory?

I generally have [kʰɞˈwoɚdnəʔ] and [ˈlæbɹət(ə)ɹi]. I remember loving to say [ləˈboːɹətɔɹi] as a kid tho.

co-ordinate [ˈkʰwɔɹdɪ̃ˌnɛjt̚]
coordinate [ˈkʰwɔɹdɪ̃ˌnɨt̚]

laboratory [ˌɫæbɹɨˈtʰɔɹi]

Okay, here's some more that interest me personally:

factory
factorial
century
centurion
victory
victorious
restaurant
restauranteur
history
historical
mystery
mysterious
interest
interesting
interestingly

(I will give my own transcriptions later, but I want to see what some of you guys have here, unhinted as to what features I am interested in.)

I thought I saw what you were getting at, so I might have observersparadoxed myself, but here:

factory ['fak̚ʧɹʷi]~['fak̚təɹʷi]
factorial [fa't:ɔɹʷɪʊ]
century ['sɛ̃ʧ(ʲə)ɹʷi]
centurion [sɛ̃'ʧɔɹʷɪə̃]~[sɛ̃'ʧʲʉɹʷɪə̃]
victory ['ʋɪk̚ʧɹʷi]~['ʋɪk̚təɹʷi]
victorious [ʋɪk̚'tɔɹʷɪəs]
restaurant ['ɹʷɛsʧɹʷɑ̃ʔ]
restauranteur [ɹʷɛsʧɹʷɑ̃'tœ]
history ['ɦɪsʧɹʷi]
historical [(ɪ)s.'tɑɹʷɪkʊ]
mystery ['mɪsʧɹʷi]~['mɪstəɹʷi]
mysterious [ms'tɪɹʷɪəs]
interest ['ɪ̃ʧɹʷɛsʔ]
interesting ['ɪ̃ʧɹʷstɪ̃]
interestingly ['ɪ̃ʧɹʷstɪ̃li]

house and carver