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zompist bboard • View topic - Ongoing sound change?

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 Post subject: Ongoing sound change?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:06 pm 
Avisaru
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My (GenAm, more or less) affricates tʃ and dʒ are turning into ʃ and ʒ, respectively. tʃ>ʃ is far less common in my speech, but I very rarely have dʒ anymore- it's all fricativised.

Is that true for anybody else?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:52 pm 
Avisaru
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It's false for me, but I am evolving initial [ts] instead of "it's". e.g. 'tsmy life, dad, fuck off!'

Is that true for anybody else?


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:07 pm 
Smeric
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Where do you live, Dhokarena?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:57 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:22 pm 
Smeric
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I have an ongoing change that added a new affricate into me language: a voicing assimilation [ts] > [dz]\ __Cv; where Cv is voiced obstruent.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:58 pm 
Avisaru
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I have the first stages of the NCVS, so:
stressed /æ/ > [ɛə̯]
unstressed /æ/ > [ɛ]
/ɜ/ > [ʌ]
/ɑ/ > [a]

I lentiate intervocalic /b/ and /g/ into [β] and [ɣ]

Intervocalic unstressed onset /p k/ > [b g]

Coda /st sts/ and /zd zdz/ > /sː/ and /zː/

/str/, /tr/, and /dr/ > /ʃr/, /ʧr/, and /ʤr/

/k/ and /ɡ/ are realized as uvular when adjacent to /r/


Last edited by TaylorS on Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:04 pm 
Sanci
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I have the /ts/ prefix, but my /tʃ dʒ/ is just fine and stable. Well, except that I do them postalveolar, but until recently I thought that was the norm

I did notice today when I said /θæŋks/ as [tæŋks], not to be confused with [tæŋks], those things that move around with massive guns. After some more experiments, I may be able to put down /θ/ > [t] / #_ in my list of ideo-allophones.

EDIT: whoah, /str/ > [ʃr]? I have /tr dr/ > [tʃr dʒr], but not that first one. How did that even develop? I guess I shouldn't whine, considering my (un)aspiration crap.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:31 pm 
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:21 pm 
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nää džunnfin kukuch vklaivei sivei tåd.
Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei. Chei.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:04 am 
Avisaru
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in my English:
-ts-prefix for it's
-[ts] > [s] in that's, let's, it's, what's
-elision of initial /ð/
-/ʊ/ is generally [ɤ] (this is one the few vowels that seems to stay in about the same spot no matter who I'm around)
-intervocalic unstressed onset /k/ > [g]
-/θ/ is occasionally [f], especially finally
-I've noticed I sometimes say [sʷɪm] for swim
-final plosives are often ejectives
-near-affrication of aspirated plosives

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Ascima mresa óscsma sáca psta numar cemea.
Cemea tae neasc ctá ms co ísbas Ascima.
Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 6:56 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:06 am 
Smeric
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:03 pm 
Sumerul
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God there is so much I could go over here, yet again, but I don't want to turn this into a Travis's Weird Dialect thread.*

Now, that said, one thing that one ought to always remember with these kinds of things is to beware false newness, the bane of any looking for non-standard forms in human languages. Just because something is nonstandard as a form does not mean, by any means, that it is necessarily new.

* I should probably just write a grammar of it, at least relative to Standard English, so I can just drop a link to a PDF or a Wiki here when this kind of thread inevitably pops up...

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


Last edited by Travis B. on Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:17 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 1:19 pm 
Smeric
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"There was a particular car I soon came to think of as distinctly St. Louis-ish: a gigantic white S.U.V. with a W. bumper sticker on it for George W. Bush."


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:36 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:37 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:39 pm 
Avisaru
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Hmm, I generally just have [sɐp].

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Ascima mresa óscsma sáca psta numar cemea.
Cemea tae neasc ctá ms co ísbas Ascima.
Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho. Carho.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:42 pm 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:45 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:17 pm 
Sumerul
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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:37 pm 
Sumerul
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On that note, as this thread does seem to be slowing down, I might as well post interesting stuff that I've found more recently IMD anyways now.

Probably the most interesting bit I have found recently is that specifically everyday speech, there is a lenition without neither voicing nor frication of unstressed intervocalic /p/, /tʃ/, and /k/ in unstressed intervocalic positions that seems to actually be far more consistent than I had previously assumed. This combines with that in the same register /b/, /dʒ/, and /ɡ/ are also voiceless lenis in this same position, likewise far more consistently than I had previously assumed. Also, /p/, /tʃ/, and /k/ do not induce preglottalization here either.

The result is essentially a pure vowel length contrast between /b/, /dʒ/, and /ɡ/ and /p/, /tʃ/, and /k/ here in everyday speech, to the point that in a narrow analysis that treated vowel length, except in morpheme-final syllables without obstruents in their coda, as phonemic would likewise treat these two sets as merging in morpheme-medial unstressed intervocalic positions.

I would still probably not use such an analysis, though, as high registers much more clearly distinguish the two sets in that position, both through the voicing of the lenis set and through less lenition of the fortis set.

(I should note that this does vary heavily depending on the exact dialect in use, e.g. my ex seems to have far less of this than people from back in the suburb where I grew up, where I heard a lot of this when I listened for it.)

On another note, one thing I noticed is that final /n/ tends to be elided more than I had thought before my dialect; it had seemed to be primarily an intervocalic thing, but rather from paying attention to things closely since then, it seems to be sporadically to very frequently, depending on register, elided finally regardless of what follows it or even utterance-finally. My parents, for instance, do seem to not infrequently drop it finally, albeit not as much as I catch myself doing. It does seem to be somewhat lexicalized, as this seems to happen much more with grammar words and with effectively-grammatical constructions than with content words, as far as I have noticed so far. (I for instance drop final /n/ extremely frequently for can, in, than, kind, and like compared to normal content words.)

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Dibotahamdn duthma jallni agaynni ra hgitn lakrhmi.
Amuhawr jalla vowa vta hlakrhi hdm duthmi xaja.
Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro. Irdro.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:07 am 
Avisaru
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:17 pm 
Smeric
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[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
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Yo te pongo en tu lugar...
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:17 pm 
Avisaru
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