Rain (n) Rain (vb) ~ Different Languages...?

[Turtlehead]

Hi turtlehead,

Yeah, I'm actually reading up on Maori grammar as it seems to share a lot with what I am trying to do.

E hia a te reo tau? (Sorry no Macrons)

Probably most polynesian languages would share the same structures.

??"How many the language you"???
= How many languages do you speak???????

As I say, "looking into", not "learning". Altho naturally you just sort of end up remembering a few bits and pieces. Random words, mostly. wahine, nga tamariki, tangata, whaka, iwi, kiau etc.

Out of interest, are you of Maori ancestry?

No, but thanks to this forum I took a few papers to increase my reo, though I aren't fluent but probably know more than the average Kiwi. Lol the first three words you listed are some of the few irregular nouns.

[masako]

I realize you're asking mainly about natlangs, but with Kala I have explicitly made the n/vb distinction only recognizable through word order and particles. This frees-up quite a number of lexemes for other uses and condenses the lexicon to a manageable size.

pana - n; u - rain; perspiration; urinate [euphemistically]

na ke pana nomok
_{1S TOP rain like.NEG}
I don't like (the) rain.

yomatli pana
_{day.FUT rain}
Tomorrow it will rain.

yomaye nahe nuyoku panak
_{day.PST in New York rain.NEG}
It didn't rain yesterday in New York.

na panahe
_{1S rain.NEC}
I gotta pee.

[Matt]

In Russian, 'rain' (the noun) is дождь dozhd' and 'it's raining' is идёт дождь idjot dozhd' (lit. 'rain walks' or 'rain goes').

Also, 'food' is еда jeda and 'to eat' is есть jest'. Я ем ja jem 'I eat', ты ешь ty jesh' 'you (sg.) eat', etc.

[fahrradkette]

... Likewise, I know Spanish does this (albeit with the relevant verby or noun changes: llover vs. lluvia, rained raining etc. But what other options are commonly used?
...

You can use plain ol' agua, too. Like as in "Ay, agua! if you're on the back of a truck and it starts to rain, or "Alla, la agua" when pointing in the distance to show it's raining somewheres else.

[----]

For Czech the correlation between 'rain (n.)' and 'rain (v.)' isn't completely transparent. The noun is déšť, while "It's raining" is Prší.
For 'food' there are two nouns- jídlo and potrava. The first is like the act of eating, or a meal, while the second refers to just food in general, as a collective. The verb 'to eat' is jíst.

[Thry]

... Likewise, I know Spanish does this (albeit with the relevant verby or noun changes: llover vs. lluvia, rained raining etc. But what other options are commonly used?
...

You can use plain ol' agua, too. Like as in "Ay, agua! if you're on the back of a truck and it starts to rain, or "Alla, la agua" when pointing in the distance to show it's raining somewheres else.

Maybe it's part of the expression, but I think it should be el agua anytime.

[Ser]

... Likewise, I know Spanish does this (albeit with the relevant verby or noun changes: llover vs. lluvia, rained raining etc. But what other options are commonly used?
...

You can use plain ol' agua, too. Like as in "Ay, agua! if you're on the back of a truck and it starts to rain, or "Alla, la agua" when pointing in the distance to show it's raining somewheres else.

I don't understand your point, agua can't behave like a verb.

Maybe it's part of the expression, but I think it should be el agua anytime.

The prescriptivist rule is that the singular feminine article changes to el when it's just before a noun beginning with a stressed /a/: *la águila > el águila, *la agua > el agua. If there's an adjective in the middle, not anymore: la blanca águila, la turbia agua. Then note the exceptions of la a ("the letter a"), la álef (the Hebrew letter), and I'm not sure if la álif (the Arabic letter) too.

I say "prescriptivist" because in my dialect I do generally say "la agua" (pronounced [ˈla.ɣ̞wa] or [la.ˈa.ɣ̞wa]), though by the way your worded it I guess you usually say el agua in your dialect.

In the past, it used to be that the feminine article changed to el before any vowel-initial adjective or noun though:

• Saco el pie del eſtribera una feridal daua
  Non ſe abre la puerta ca biẽ era çerrada (Çid, lines 38-39)
  He got his foot out of the stirrup, he gave it a strong blow
  The door doesn't open as it was heavily secured
  
  En mano t̃ae deſnuda el eſpada (Çid, line 471)
  He's carrying his sword naked in his hand
  
  Aſſi ffera lo de ſiloca q̃ es del otra part (Çid, line 635)
  In Siloca, which is on the other side, it will be like this
  
  Faſta dentro en xatina duro el arrancada (Çid, line 1227)
  The pursuit lasted even into Xatina
  
  Q^uando uos los fueredes ferir entrare yo del otra part
  Ode amas odel vna dios nos valdra (Çid, line 1696-7)
  When you go to hit them, I will enter from the other side
  Either on both, or on one, God will help

[Khvaragh]

In Arabic you also get a verb and a noun from the same root: أمطرت ʔamṭarat (I've no idea why it's always in the feminine) 'to rain', مطر maṭar 'rain' (masculine gender, plural أمطار ʔamṭār).

Most likely because there's an omitted pleonastic subject which is feminine i.e. this shows up in Egyptian Colloquial, where the standard is الدنيا بتشتي /id:inja: bitiSti:/. الدنيا is feminine, and usually means "world," so "the world is raining," literally.
تشتي is the imperfect reflex of Classical شتا /Sata:/, likely a denominative from الشتاء /aS:ita:?/ "winter." Keep in mind that the distinction between "cold rain" (or regular rain) and snow is a very loose in the Arab world, considering I can probably count on one hand the number of times it's rained here since I've lived here (and note, always in the winter, so winter = rainy season). There's also the more Classical الدنيا بتمطّر /id:inja bitmat_?\:ar/, but no one says that (in Cairo anyways). I'd imagine that Classical uses a similar construction when not omitting the subject, or perhaps more prosaically, السماء /as:ama:?/ "sky," which is also feminine, but I've never personally seen this usage.

Quick update:
I've verified that the Cairene form is indeed الدنيا بتمطر /id:inja: bitmat_?\ar/, the colloquial form of Serafín's Classical citation. It is the Alexandrian form which is الدنيا بتشتي /id:inja: bitiSti:/.
The confusion results from this: much of my use of Egyptian Colloquial is colored/informed by conversation with my boyfriend, and his family, who are Alexandrian. The dialectal forms are very similar, and part of the same Lower Egyptian continuum, but there are some differences mainly in vocabulary. For example, عركة /?\arka/ "fight" instead of Cairene خناقة /xina:?a/; مزتكة /maztika/ "gum [for chewing]" instead of Cairene لبان /liba:n/ (in Cairo, the Alexandrian form is used for a kind of tree gum/sap which is used as a spice); فلافل /fala:fil/ "falafal" instead of Cairene طعمية /t_?\a?\maj:a/.
There are others, but these are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. I use the Alexandrian forms because I'm used to them, except I code-switch with the words for falafal depending on who I'm speaking to.

Note that, like most dialectal variations, these are not always hard constrasts, and some typically Alexandrian forms show up occasionally in Cairene. For example, the first person singular progressive of قرأ /?ara/ "he read" is بنقرأ /bini?ira/ in Alexandrian, identical with the first person plural progressive (most non-perfect verbs in the speech of older Alexandrians also are identical with the first person plural, but this is uncommon for all but this verb in younger speakers), while the Cairene is the expected باقرأ /ba?ara~ba?ra/. However, I have at least one friend who uses the typically "Alexandrian" form, but is not Alexandrian, nor did she grow up there, nor is her family from there. This may be an idiosyncratic blip, or it may be related to verbal forms, since she doesn't use any of the other Alexandrian vocabulary, but it's difficult to say for certain.

[Thry]

... Likewise, I know Spanish does this (albeit with the relevant verby or noun changes: llover vs. lluvia, rained raining etc. But what other options are commonly used?
...

You can use plain ol' agua, too. Like as in "Ay, agua! if you're on the back of a truck and it starts to rain, or "Alla, la agua" when pointing in the distance to show it's raining somewheres else.

I don't understand your point, agua can't behave like a verb.

I think he's just using it as the noun it is (as if you said, "¡Ay, niebla!" or "¡Ay, nieve!"). And as an aside, the verb aguar exists in my dialect, though with a different meaning (e.g. aguar la fiesta a alguien). But it would be easy to understand that somebody meant rain if they say "se nos aguó la tarde".

And yes, unless I commit a mistake, I'd never say *la águila, *la agua, *la hada or anything alike. Only when referring to something which can be feminine or masculine: la árabe/el árabe, or the exceptions you mentioned (la a, etc.). It comes naturally to me to say el agua fría/la fría agua.

[----]

In Inuktitut, the phrase 'It's raining' would be Maquktuq, and 'it snows' is Qanniqtuq. I only recognize the root qanniq here which just means 'snow' and -tuq is the simple 3S verb ending, so I'm assuming that it's the same construction for Maquktuq.

[Cathbad]

In Slovene, dež is the noun for rain, with the corresponding verb deževati (imperfective dežuje, in the third person singular, ie. "[it's] raining").
Similar for sneg - snežiti (although it takes a different stem form for some reason - probably related to fossilized morphophonological derivational rules, since the <e> in the two words stands for two completely different phonemes).

Note that, at least colloquially, it's also perfectly natural and acceptable to say dež pada and sneg pada "rain/snow is falling", especially when trying to convey a more durative meaning. By contrast, the dedicated verbs (deževati/snežiti) are used more frequently for momentary observations, i.e. "it's raining/snowing now".

(There's also the verb pršiti, with the derived noun pršec, but this is only used for very light rain / drizzle.)

As for the "food" thing, there are the following pairs:

hraniti (se) [a verb that does not allow object omission, i.e. either with an overt object or reflexive] - 'to feed' (oneself or someone/something)
hrana - 'food'

jesti - 'to eat'
jed - 'course, dish'

Which does appear to have some sort of correlation in other Slavic languages, although not all four "positions" appear to always be filled or cover quite the same semantic fields.

I've verified that the Cairene form is indeed الدنيا بتمطر /id:inja: bitmat_?\ar/, the colloquial form of Serafín's Classical citation. It is the Alexandrian form which is الدنيا بتشتي /id:inja: bitiSti:/.

The sh-t-i root is used (at least) in Morocco as well, although of course in a suitably "compressed" Maghrebi form. (shti?)

[hwhatting]

In Russian, 'rain' (the noun) is дождь dozhd' and 'it's raining' is идёт дождь idjot dozhd' (lit. 'rain walks' or 'rain goes').

Also, 'food' is еда jeda and 'to eat' is есть jest'. Я ем ja jem 'I eat', ты ешь ty jesh' 'you (sg.) eat', etc.

Same with снег "snow" and град "hail".
Kazakh (a Turkic language) has a similar structure - the noun is zhaNbyr "rain", "it is raining" is zhaNbyr zhauyp tur (zhauu is a special verb only used for precipitation - also with qara "snow" and burshaq hail, zhauyp tur is the continous form, formed with the verb "stand" as auxiliary).

I've verified that the Cairene form is indeed الدنيا بتمطر /id:inja: bitmat_?\ar/, the colloquial form of Serafín's Classical citation. It is the Alexandrian form which is الدنيا بتشتي /id:inja: bitiSti:/.

The sh-t-i root is used (at least) in Morocco as well, although of course in a suitably "compressed" Maghrebi form. (shti?)

It's also found in Lebanese - "rain" is shitti. So "shitti weather" is a pun you sometimes may hear among anglophones in Beirut....

[GrinningManiac]

In Hindi (and therefore presumably Urdu) rain is a noun and only a noun.
बारिश
To say "It's raining" one says
बारिश हो रहा है।
Literally this means "rain-be-continuous is"

[Ser]

And as an aside, the verb aguar exists in my dialect, though with a different meaning (e.g. aguar la fiesta a alguien).

Oh, I didn't know that was actually a verb for you guys! Now I've finally got to understand the etymology of aguafiestas.

But it would be easy to understand that somebody meant rain if they say "se nos aguó la tarde".

But that's more like... some sort of implicative depending on the context, you could say that se te aguó la tarde because of a myriad of other reasons, no? (Since aguarse la tarde is more like "to get the afternoon ruined" when translated to English or soemthing.)

Only when referring to something which can be feminine or masculine: la árabe/el árabe, or the exceptions you mentioned (la a, etc.).

Oh yeah, substantive adjectives, good point. My rule goes for nouns only, yep.

[Cathbad]

It's also found in Lebanese - "rain" is shitti. So "shitti weather" is a pun you sometimes may hear among anglophones in Beirut....

And, according to our teacher, the military school recruits he taught Arabic (for 10 years or so? I'm not sure) found this immensely funny when a Lebanese teacher taught it to them. If it helps them in learning the language, though, I guess it's all for the good.

[Ser]

Well and whatnot. If you associate Lebanon with the desert, you wouldn't think they'd call rain a shitty thing...

[Jipí]

Literally this means "rain-be-continuous is"

http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/resources/ ... -rules.php ← helpful. Especially since the phrase you gave conists of more than 2 words, while you glossed it as 2.

So, I guess, without knowing the language...

Bāriśā ho rahā hai
rain COP continuous be.3S

?

[Astraios]

Would the Arabic sh-t-y root be a cognate of Hebrew sh-t-h drink?

[Cathbad]

Well and whatnot. If you associate Lebanon with the desert, you wouldn't think they'd call rain a shitty thing...

Indeed. This was from the same stock where someone thought the al-Aqsa mosque was in India apparently. (There is a mosque called that in Pakistan, but that's not really the point...)

[Šm Mepuyoš ab Duhen]

Croatian

kiša(noun) kišiti(infinitive)

[hwhatting]

Well and whatnot. If you associate Lebanon with the desert, you wouldn't think they'd call rain a shitty thing...

??? Only someone who never has looked at a map would do so...

[Khvaragh]

Would the Arabic sh-t-y root be a cognate of Hebrew sh-t-h drink?

I tend to think not. Hebrew שׁ /S/ is generally cognate to Arabic س /s/ (which is a merging of PS */s/~/ts/ and /S/~/s/). Arabic ش /S/ results from PS */K/, which gives Hebrew שׂ /s/</K/, i.e. Arabic شعر /Sa?\r/ "hair," Biblical Hebrew שֵׂעָר /se?\a:r/< /Ke?\a:r/, Syriac ܣܥܪܐ /sa?\ra:/. I suppose it's POSSIBLY a borrowing, but I find it unlikely that such a basic root would be borrowed, let alone considering that while "drink" and "rain/snow" occupy similar semantic fields relating to liquids, they still seem too far apart for it to be more than a coincidence. In addition, it's unlikely that there was a change of articulation which we see in root like PS */KamS/ (Arabic /Sams/ Hebrew /SEmES/) "sun," where the presence of a second sibilant causes an euphonic shift. So I'd say it's coincidence.