zompist bboard

I had been wondering a long time ago when I still somewhat studied Polish, why the <y> was described as a /ɨ/, since to me it was clearly a [ɪ]. Today, when thinking about it (for the first time in a few years, I guess, dunno why it came up), I checked the IPA vowel charts found on Wikipedia, and lo and behold: they are actually the same! Stupid phoneticians, can't even agree on how to portray a sound in different languages. Sigh...

Well, it's not as simple as that. The circled position is neither IPA [ɪ] nor [ɨ], in the most technical sense (it's actually closer to [ɘ] than either of those two). The IPA vowel positions and cardinal vowels are prototypes, ideals. No language actually uses them – certainly not consistently, at least. Even describing them as points on the vowel chart is a bit of a simplification, as in reality the things vary across a sort of range of the vowel chart.

also what are you comparing there, dutch and polish?

Anyway, a lot of this is a tradition or convention, and the work is generally done by different phoneticians.

finlay wrote:The circled position is neither IPA [ɪ] nor [ɨ]

Yeah, that's probably the cause of the incosistent naming. Perhaps Germanic is traditionally said to have [ɪ], and Slavonic [ɨ], ot something.

also what are you comparing there, dutch and polish?

Yeah, Dutch = mostly red, Polish = black.


JAL

Yeah, that's [ɘ]. But nobody ever lists their vowel phonology as /i e ɘ a o u/, just like nobody writes /i ɛ ɑ ɔ u/ for a five-vowel sysetm, even if those are closer to the actual realizations than /i e a o u/. Similarly, the sixth vowel in a gapless six-vowel system is almost always written as /ə/, /ɨ/, or /y/, regardless of its actual realization.

Regarding the Dutch phonology you give, a lot of Germanic varieties (including many regional Englishes) have a centralized or backed /ɪ/. It's not an uncommon shift.

jal wrote:

finlay wrote:The circled position is neither IPA [ɪ] nor [ɨ]

Yeah, that's probably the cause of the incosistent naming. Perhaps Germanic is traditionally said to have [ɪ], and Slavonic [ɨ], ot something.

yep, although Ukrainian is the exception for some reason. maybe because it uses a character normally used for /i/ to write its /ɪ/?

Nortaneous wrote:yep, although Ukrainian is the exception for some reason. maybe because it uses a character normally used for /i/ to write its /ɪ/?

wikipedia wrote:/ɪ/ may be classified as retracted high-mid front vowel or lowered retracted high front vowel

Also, it apparently uses <и> for /ɪ/, and <i> for /i/ (as opposed to Russian, that uses <и> for /i/, and has [ɨ] only as an allophone.


JAL