Maori

[Skomakar'n]

Awesome! Thanks a lot!

[Turtlehead]

Nice reo.

[Kuturere Reo]

Cheers. I will continue with Hawaiian, using examples from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaiian_grammar

Hawaiian is an Eastern Polynesian language of the Marquesic subgroup, whereas MAO is part of the Tahitic subgroup. The basic structures are pretty much the same as Maori, and although Hawaiian has a few more consonant changes, it is closer to Maori than EAS which is out on its own in EP.

PPN *f = HAW h, MAO wh, h
PPN *s = HAW, MAO h
PPN *g (velar nasal) = HAW n, MAO ng (velar nasal)
PPN *t = HAW k, MAO t
PPN *k = HAW ' (glottal stop), MAO k

From the Wiki article on Hawaiian grammar:

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Examples of question-word questions are He aha kēia? "A what this?", "What is this?" and 'O wai kou inoa "[subject] who your name?", "What is your name?"

HAW: He aha kēia?
MAO: He aha tēnei?

he aha tē.nei
indef what the.proximate
"What is this?"

Where te seems like a lengthened version of "te" the definite singular article. Note that in Maori (but not Hawaiian) you pluralise this sentence by dropping the "t". You don't need to change the 'he' because it does not vary in the plural:

MAO: He aha ēnei?

he aha ē.nei
indef what ??.proximate
"What are these?"

Re HAW "kēia" and MAO "tēnei", because Hawaiian "k" derives from *t that means the initial elements of these words are the same.


HAW: 'O wai kou inoa?
MAO: Ko wai tou ingoa?

ko wai tou ingoa
TOPIC who 2p.poss.singular name
"What is your name?"

Everything there is exactly cognate.


For the next example we need to know a bit about possessives in Maori, which come in two flavours, A and O marking dominant/subordinate or alienable/inalienable depending who wrote the grammar. Here's what Wiki says from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_language

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Possessives fall into one of two classes marked by a and o, depending on the dominant versus subordinate relationship between possessor and possessed, so nga tamariki a te matua, the children of the parent, but te matua o nga tamariki, the parent of the children.

Okay so here's the Hawaiian example from Wiki.

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To pluralize nouns marked with a possessive, add mau between the possessive and the noun.

    ka'u mau puke (my books)

    kona mau puke (his books)

Maori doesn't pluralise possessives that way, it uses t-deletion. Nonetheless, the HAW possessives "ka'u" and "kona" here have direct cognates in MAO "tāku" / "taku" and "tōna".
And while Maori and Hawaiian both A and O possessives, Maori also has some possessives that are neutral for A/O.

MAO tōku pukapuka
my book (o possessive)
MAO tāku tama
my boy (a possessive)

but with a short "a"
MAO taku pukapuka
my book (unmarked for A/O)
MAO taku tama
my boy (unmarked for A/O)

and the plurals drop the t-

MAO ōku pukapuka
my books (o possessive)
MAO āku tama
my boys (a possessive)

but with a short "a"
MAO aku pukapuka
my books (unmarked for A/O)
MAO aku tama
my boys (unmarked for A/O)


These aren't mentioned in Wikipedia's Maori language article though.

Last example from the Hawaiian grammar article is to do with verbs and tenses

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Verbs
[edit] Tense, aspect, and mood

Verbs can be analytically modified to indicate tense, aspect and mood as follows:[1]:p.19

    * ua + verb: perfective aspect, past tense; or perfect tense/aspect (ua hana au "I worked", "I have worked"). Note that the pre-verbal marker ua is often omitted in speech.
    * ua + verb + e: pluperfect tense/aspect (ua hana e au "I had worked")
    * i + verb: past tense (i hana au "I worked"); or, perfect participle (i hana "having worked", "who had worked")
    * e + verb + ana: imperfective aspect (e hana ana au "I was working", "I will be working")
    * ke + verb + nei: present tense, progressive aspect (ke hana nei au "I am working")
    * e + verb: future tense/mood (e hana au "I will work"); or, infinitive (e hana "to work"); or, imperative mood (e hana oe "Work thou!")
    * mai + verb: negative imperative mood

Cognates:

HAW hana
MAO hanga
Hanga = make, build, fashion, create; tho MAO tends to use the verb "mahi" as the normal verb for "work".

HAW ua hana au
MAO kua hanga au (the HAW form "ua" should begin with a glottal stop, tho it may have lost it)
perfective

HAW oe
MAO koe (again HAW should have a glottal stop. Looks like the wiki author is omitting it)
2nd person singular

In general the tenses and the particles used are identical, tho there are some differences in meaning

HAW e hana ana au
MAO e hanga ana au
progressive in MAO rather than imperfective, I'd say
I am working

HAW ke hana nei au
MAO te hanga nei au
def work proximate 1.sing

While this could mean "I am working" it feels very archaic in MAO

and the "infinitive" in MAO would not be "e hanga" but "ki te hanga" where ki is a preposition meaning "to, towards" and "te" is the definite article. Yes, just like English, but it's like that in all the earliest texts.

and

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mai + verb: negative imperative mood

has no equivalent in MAO.

So I could do this for other languages, but this is probably as much as anyone needs to get the point of how related the Polynesian languages are to each other, the Eastern Polynesian languages at least. If I did Rarotongan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cook_Islands_M%C4%81ori) the similarity would be even more marked than it has been with EAS and HAW.

When you try to do the same for Western Polynesian languages, there will still be lots of cognates but the grammatical forms and particles are much less similar, and unfortunately the Wiki articles for Samoan and Tongan are pretty strange. So I think I will stop here.

[Drydic]

Re Tongan, at least: I have a pdf that claims that the language is ergatively-aligned. And backs it up with examples.

[Kuturere Reo]

Re Tongan, at least: I have a pdf that claims that the language is ergatively-aligned. And backs it up with examples.

Yeah that seems highly likely, and I am sure the examples I have given here could be interpreted other ways, tho I am not really grammar literate enough to know much different. There has been a lot of debate about ergativity in Polynesian, and whether the passive in Maori is really a passive or what. I just know I have a lot of trouble "getting" Tongan or Samoan whereas the EP languages are kind of like Maori with some of the words changed.

[Turtlehead]

For the next example we need to know a bit about possessives in Maori, which come in two flavours, A and O marking dominant/subordinate or alienable/inalienable depending who wrote the grammar. Here's what Wiki says from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C4%81ori_language

Code: Select all

Possessives fall into one of two classes marked by a and o, depending on the dominant versus subordinate relationship between possessor and possessed, so nga tamariki a te matua, the children of the parent, but te matua o nga tamariki, the parent of the children.

Okay so here's the Hawaiian example from Wiki.

Code: Select all

To pluralize nouns marked with a possessive, add mau between the possessive and the noun.

    ka'u mau puke (my books)

    kona mau puke (his books)

Maori doesn't pluralise possessives that way, it uses t-deletion. Nonetheless, the HAW possessives "ka'u" and "kona" here have direct cognates in MAO "tāku" / "taku" and "tōna".
And while Maori and Hawaiian both A and O possessives, Maori also has some possessives that are neutral for A/O.

MAO tōku pukapuka
my book (o possessive)
MAO tāku tama
my boy (a possessive)

but with a short "a"
MAO taku pukapuka
my book (unmarked for A/O)
MAO taku tama
my boy (unmarked for A/O)

and the plurals drop the t-

MAO ōku pukapuka
my books (o possessive)
MAO āku tama
my boys (a possessive)

but with a short "a"
MAO aku pukapuka
my books (unmarked for A/O)
MAO aku tama
my boys (unmarked for A/O)

You wouldn't use O for a book.
tōku waka - my boat/car
is okay though

A/O catagories is complicated when it comes to kinship, but relatively easy for other objects.

[Kuturere Reo]

What are you talking about. If i didnt write the book i can use O.

[Nooj]

Actually, no. NZ English vowels are only marginally different from Australian English - which Māori could not have influenced. It's more like Māori vowels are becoming more English-like among younger speakers. You are right about the flora and fauna vocab tho.

I read a paper about this. I imagine it's a topic of some concern among older Māori speakers.

[Chargone]

which parts of Australia was that about anyway?

the south east of Australia, where for a Long time the accent had more in common with NZ than with the rest of Australia, or other parts with a more stereotypical 'Australian' accent?

because even if the difference is small, in the latter case Kiwi's will notice it as 'different' more easily than they will a lot of English accents (though far from all, obviously) or some American accents...

meh *shrugs*

[Kuturere Reo]

which parts of Australia was that about anyway?

the south east of Australia, where for a Long time the accent had more in common with NZ than with the rest of Australia, or other parts with a more stereotypical 'Australian' accent?

because even if the difference is small, in the latter case Kiwi's will notice it as 'different' more easily than they will a lot of English accents (though far from all, obviously) or some American accents...

meh *shrugs*

That was just a reply to your suggestion about the origin of NZE vowels.

[Turtlehead]

Ka korero koe ki te whanau a ZBB, e Reo.

[Kuturere Reo]

Ka korero koe ki te whanau a ZBB, e Reo.

You should stick to a language you know. What does "You speak to the family of ZBB" mean? And it should be whānau o ZBB.

[Kuturere Reo]

Ka korero koe ki te whanau a ZBB, e Reo.

You should stick to a language you know. What does "You speak to the family of ZBB" mean? And it should be whānau o ZBB.

[Yng]

If you haven't realised already that talking to Turtlehead is effectively a waste of time, now might be a good time.

[Kuturere Reo]

If you haven't realised already that talking to Turtlehead is effectively a waste of time, now might be a good time.

I realised long ago. People are too nice to him - designing him a 12-case conlang for instance, when it was obvious he didn't know cases from jackshit.

[Turtlehead]

If you haven't realised already that talking to Turtlehead is effectively a waste of time, now might be a good time.

I realised long ago. People are too nice to him - designing him a 12-case conlang for instance, when it was obvious he didn't know cases from jackshit.

There is always time to learn, wouldn't life suck if you were born knowing everything?

[Chargone]

If you haven't realised already that talking to Turtlehead is effectively a waste of time, now might be a good time.

I realised long ago. People are too nice to him - designing him a 12-case conlang for instance, when it was obvious he didn't know cases from jackshit.

There is always time to learn, wouldn't life suck if you were born knowing everything?

this presupposes an actual willingness and/or ability to do so, mind you.

there's a depressingly large number of people in this world lacking one or the other. or both.

(the various collection societies, for example... )

[Turtlehead]

If you haven't realised already that talking to Turtlehead is effectively a waste of time, now might be a good time.

I realised long ago. People are too nice to him - designing him a 12-case conlang for instance, when it was obvious he didn't know cases from jackshit.

There is always time to learn, wouldn't life suck if you were born knowing everything?

this presupposes an actual willingness and/or ability to do so, mind you.

there's a depressingly large number of people in this world lacking one or the other. or both.

(the various collection societies, for example... )

Well on a positive note, I do know a little more about cases now.

[Chargone]

If you haven't realised already that talking to Turtlehead is effectively a waste of time, now might be a good time.

I realised long ago. People are too nice to him - designing him a 12-case conlang for instance, when it was obvious he didn't know cases from jackshit.

There is always time to learn, wouldn't life suck if you were born knowing everything?

this presupposes an actual willingness and/or ability to do so, mind you.

there's a depressingly large number of people in this world lacking one or the other. or both.

(the various collection societies, for example... )

Well on a positive note, I do know a little more about cases now.

yay learning!

[Turtlehead]

yay learning!

Learning is a positive step towards knowing stuff.
Kei te ako i te hikoi pai ki te mohio a nga mea.

[Kuturere Reo]

Learning is a positive step towards knowing stuff.
Kei te ako i te hikoi pai ki te mohio a nga mea.

Better translation of Turtlehead's "Maori": At the learn in the walking good to the knowledge of the people.

[Turtlehead]

Learning is a positive step towards knowing stuff.
Kei te ako i te hikoi pai ki te mohio a nga mea.

Better translation of Turtlehead's "Maori": At the learn in the walking good to the knowledge of the people.

E pehea ana koe e korero ana i tenei?

[Kuturere Reo]

Learning is a positive step towards knowing stuff.
Kei te ako i te hikoi pai ki te mohio a nga mea.

Better translation of Turtlehead's "Maori": At the learn in the walking good to the knowledge of the people.

E pehea ana koe e korero ana i tenei?

If you want me to answer that you will have to give a translation. Maori is not English badly translated with a dictionary and so "E pehea ana koe e korero ana i tenei?" doesnt make sense.

[Turtlehead]

Learning is a positive step towards knowing stuff.
Kei te ako i te hikoi pai ki te mohio a nga mea.

Better translation of Turtlehead's "Maori": At the learn in the walking good to the knowledge of the people.

E pehea ana koe e korero ana i tenei?

If you want me to answer that you will have to give a translation. Maori is not English badly translated with a dictionary and so "E pehea ana koe e korero ana i tenei?" doesnt make sense.

That is true, and I would admit I am not fluent, but you could at least be abit gracious in your responses.

Are you fluent i roto i te Reo?

A rough english translation would be; 'How do you say this?'

[Pthagnar]

grace departed a couple of pages back