French attitude to regional languages

[corcaighist]

I realise as a graduate of French studies that the French state has a less-than-benevolent attitude to the presence on République soil of non-Francien languages, and in the past one of the roles of the the education system was to Frenchicize the population of France, to unify the people under one state, language and nationality but I was stuck today by a bizzare assertion whilst listening to a debate from a coursebook that prepares students to sit the DALF (Advanced French) exams. The debate was entitled 'Should we teach classical languages at school?' (Faut-il enseigner les langues classiques à l'école?)

Now, this dialogue is fake and has been scripted for the coursebook but that doesn't take away from the bizzare statement that is made in the text which, at the end of the day, was written by a pedagogue.

The journalist had just stated that the study of 'dead languages' is of interest to linguists and language enthusiasts but not much use to school kids in the Parisian suburbs. Then a university expert in classic languages replies:

First of all, these languages [classical languages: Ancient Greek and Latin] are not more dead than Occitan and Breton. They are written down, still relatively published and their survival does not depend on the number of people who speak them. As long as a few hundred people will speak and read Latin, that can not be classed as a 'dead language'.

Now, I once had an idiot undergrade inform me that Breton was simply a 'dialect of French' but seriously, this coming from a well-respected book that prepares students for taking exams in French as a foreign language? How can you compare Latin and Ancient Greek to Breton and Occitan? The latter languages have about a million speakers between them, and while it is true that they have seen far better days, one can not brush them aside as 'dead'. What the Sámi, for example wouldn't give for a chance to have some 200,00 speakers like Breton. It never ceases to amaze me the length the French go to piss all over their patrimoine!

I remember being annoyed back in my undergraduate days that the Department of Hispanic Studies in my uni taught Basque, Galician, Catalan and Portuguese languages and studies while the Department of French was solely focused on Francien matters and had no intention of even considering offering studies in any other languages of the l'Hexagone. I had to wait 4 years until I learned that even in the late C19th vast areas of France spoke no French at all. The book Peasants into Frenchmen: The Modernization of Rural France, 1870-1914 was an eye-opener for me as regards the diversity that is (was?) France. The Discovery of France is also an interesting read, though less academic in its approach.

It just made me sad that's all to hear something so dismissal of Breton. All languages are beautiful and so is French but really, the attitude of some educators and figures of authorities to their own country's culture is disgraceful, and it really spoils my enjoyment of French studies.

Y a-t-il certains qui ressentent d'une façon similaire? Anyone think likewise?

[linguoboy]

It just made me sad that's all to hear something so dismissal of Breton. All languages are beautiful and so is French but really, the attitude of some educators and figures of authorities to their own country's culture is disgraceful, and it really spoils my enjoyment of French studies.

What's really sad about Breton is how the Bretons have struggled so hard in the face of governmental indifference (at best) to establish Breton-language instruction and, in the end, managed to recreate the system of Ireland, where the young learn an artificial standard that leaves them incapable of communicating with the remaining native speakers whose living dialects probably won't hold out for more than another few decades.

[Legion]

Contempt for all that constituates the traditional culture(s) of France (including, but not limited to language) has sadly been the norm in the French political and cultural elite for quite a long time now.

[xxx]

In fact France was constructed by centralism, french language itself is only Paris language that Kings imposed to all territory, and french revolution decided to exterminate any different dialect to fund one unique nation, and so on... the same ideology is always present now...and all non-french languages of France are near dead!

And now, french as international language is down and The French politicians lead the teaching of the language towards an economical optimization which forgets everything (greek , latin, breton, even classic french ) except English...

As a french man I say : c'est lamentable !

[Herr Dunkel]

Even though it's not as explicit, standardisation of German and dialect leveling in Germany is pretty prevalent, and only the most widely spoken Low German, Allemanic, Ländlisch and Austro-Bavarian dialects in Germany seem to be resisting significantly.
Many German dialects have dwindled in numbers in the recent years.

[linguoboy]

Even though it's not as explicit, standardisation of German and dialect leveling in Germany is pretty prevalent, and only the most widely spoken Low German, Allemanic, Ländlisch and Austro-Bavarian dialects in Germany seem to be resisting significantly.

There's really no comparison. Half of all people in Germany speak dialect with a quarter saying they speak it "eigentlich immer" ("pretty much all the time"). Granted, that second figure is down from 30% ten years ago, but that in turn represented a slight increase over previous survey results[*]. And resistance is strong not only in the south, but also in the Rhineland and the east. (The proportion of people in the former east who speak dialect "eigentlich immer" is one third.) And the dialects have a foothold in popular culture; when I was living in Germany, there was a band devoted to covering Tom Waits songs in Kölsch and rap in Swabian was the flavour of the month. When the publishers of Asterix began to produce dialect translations, they were enormously popular.

I can't imagine anything similar in France. I never met a young person who spoke patois, never saw it in use in the public sphere (in Freiburg, the public transit authority put up adverts in Alemannic), never heard of popular attempts to revitalise it. The only varieties I saw getting any attention were the beneficiaries of bleedover from efforts in neighbouring countries. (Alsatian due to Alemannic, Breton due to Celtic Revival, etc.) You see nothing of the kind of widespread affection for regional vernaculars you find in Germany, Italy, the Low Countries, or Spain.

[*] Source: http://www.ifd-allensbach.de/news/prd_0804.html

[Herr Dunkel]

Even though it's not as explicit, standardisation of German and dialect leveling in Germany is pretty prevalent, and only the most widely spoken Low German, Allemanic, Ländlisch and Austro-Bavarian dialects in Germany seem to be resisting significantly.

There's really no comparison. Half of all people in Germany speak dialect with a quarter saying they speak it "eigentlich immer" ("pretty much all the time"). Granted, that second figure is down from 30% ten years ago, but that in turn represented a slight increase over previous survey results[*]. And resistance is strong not only in the south, but also in the Rhineland and the east. (The proportion of people in the former east who speak dialect "eigentlich immer" is one third.) And the dialects have a foothold in popular culture; when I was living in Germany, there was a band devoted to covering Tom Waits songs in Kölsch and rap in Swabian was the flavour of the month. When the publishers of Asterix began to produce dialect translations, they were enormously popular.

I can't imagine anything similar in France. I never met a young person who spoke patois, never saw it in use in the public sphere (in Freiburg, the public transit authority put up adverts in Alemannic), never heard of popular attempts to revitalise it. The only varieties I saw getting any attention were the beneficiaries of bleedover from efforts in neighbouring countries. (Alsatian due to Alemannic, Breton due to Celtic Revival, etc.) You see nothing of the kind of widespread affection for regional vernaculars you find in Germany, Italy, the Low Countries, or Spain.

[*] Source: http://www.ifd-allensbach.de/news/prd_0804.html

I did say it's not as explicit =/
Yes, many dialects are alive and doing quite well, but a lot of the smaller ones are getting assimilated into the bigger ones. That doesn't neccesarily relate to Schriftdeutsch, but to the prestigious form of the language/dialect.
For example, Mingaboarisch (München Bavarian) is being ever more assimilated into Mittlboarisch (Mittelbairisch) proper, as are Westmittlboarisch and Ostmittlboarisch converging.

[Travis B.]

Still, from just about everything I at least have heard, High German dialects are probably amongst the best-preserved and most widely-used of those outside any standard language anywhere in Europe.

[jmcd]

So yeah here the teachers are mostly from Metropolitan France. Most of them are not bad (they usually know a few words in Creole) but there are one or two that treat speaking Creole like it was doing something wrong, like throwing things at the teacher. Then again the some of the other assistants are not much better.

But yeah Réunion Creole's surviving a lot better than Breton etc in Metropolitan France with more than 90% speaking it and more than 50% using only Creole on a daily basis.

[Gulliver]

My French tutor at university referred to Breton as "just a patois", which is the linguistic equivalent of calling someone a nigger. Languages that call themselves patois can do so, but you can't just apply the term to any minority language and expect good results.

The French constitution explicitly says that "French is the language of the republic", which reminds me of Americans and their right to bop about with a gun in their pocket. Through most of the five republics, there has been active political hostility towards minority languages in France, with Breton being the favourite target. Usual justifications have been to encourage unity and raise literacy, without entertaining the idea that people can, oh I don't know be bilingual?

Then again, most other Western countries haven't done that well at encouraging minority languages. In the UK, Welsh speakers suffered the Welsh Not in school, which is symbolic of an attitude that Welsh was not fit for education. It was also not to be used in courts of law until 1942, and that was only under a sort of "equal opportunities" ruling for those who could not use English. The nation shrugged as Cornish died, and Scottish Gaelic has only had statutory basis for six years.

In the USA, the only pre-colonization language to be doing anything really positive is Hawaiian, with Navajo increasing as well. Pennsylvania Dutch and other immigrant-brought languages other than English are mostly museum pieces, from that I gather.

So, yeah, France had been explicitly hostile, but it's only recently that anyone has been any better. Apathy and indifference can be just as damaging as active attack.

[sirdanilot]

I actually think active hostility is better for the minority language than apathy and letting it die a silent death, because people will resist and start using slogans in the minority language. Then again, nobody really speaks Irish in Northern Ireland...

[Whimemsz]

In the USA, the only pre-colonization language to be doing anything really positive is Hawaiian, with Navajo increasing as well. Pennsylvania Dutch and other immigrant-brought languages other than English are mostly museum pieces, from that I gather.

The immigrant languages dying thing is more due to kids preferring to speak the language of the media and all their peers than active persecution (as opposed to the situation with the pre-colonialization languages, which often were the targets of active persecution [boarding schools, etc., same as with Canada and Australia]). On the plus side, while there are a lot of people here who want English to be the "official" language there does seem to be a pretty broad recognition of the value of other languages and their right to be spoken (the same doesn't usually apply to non-standard varieties of English, though).

But also, let's give a shout out to New Zealand whose European colonizers did a pretty shitty job of killing off the Natives and so today their white colonizer government has done more than probably any other to support the culture and language of their aboriginal inhabitants (though it's easier just having to deal with one group of aboriginals, one language, etc.).




Not that I actually know much about any of this but whatever.

[Ziz]

In the USA, the only pre-colonization language to be doing anything really positive is Hawaiian, with Navajo increasing as well. Pennsylvania Dutch and other immigrant-brought languages other than English are mostly museum pieces, from that I gather.

The immigrant languages dying thing is more due to kids preferring to speak the language of the media and all their peers than active persecution (as opposed to the situation with the pre-colonialization languages, which often were the targets of active persecution [boarding schools, etc., same as with Canada and Australia]).

This. Last semester I worked with Hispanic immigrant third graders in a bilingual class (most of the instruction was in Spanish, with some English), and most of them were initially very hesitant to speak Spanish with me. For the first few weeks I'd speak to them entirely in Spanish and they'd respond almost invariably in English. Only after they got thoroughly comfortable with me did they start responding in Spanish.

Even so, a few of them interrogated me about why I'd ever want to speak Spanish, and they told me they all preferred English.

[Gulliver]

I actually think active hostility is better for the minority language than apathy and letting it die a silent death, because people will resist and start using slogans in the minority language. Then again, nobody really speaks Irish in Northern Ireland...

I've heard that most people under the age of thirty can reliably ask if they're allowed to go to the toilet, as that's all they used it for in school. I remember my cousin being able to basically only say that in Welsh (where schools are officially bilingual and have to encourage the use of Welsh, even in areas that are almost entirely English-speaking) but he is a bit thick so that might not be a good measure.

[linguoboy]

Then again, most other Western countries haven't done that well at encouraging minority languages. In the UK, Welsh speakers suffered the Welsh Not in school, which is symbolic of an attitude that Welsh was not fit for education. It was also not to be used in courts of law until 1942, and that was only under a sort of "equal opportunities" ruling for those who could not use English. The nation shrugged as Cornish died, and Scottish Gaelic has only had statutory basis for six years.

Still, there's really no comparison. Yeah, most Western countries were shitty about encouraging multiculturalism until relatively recently; centralisation and assimilation was the prevailing ethos (largely--it must be said--due to the example of France, which was a pioneer in this respect). But the point is that as more and more of them have changed their tune, France's unyielding hostility looks particularly retrograde. When you make a list of other countries which are actively hostile toward local linguistic varieties, you don't find it in very pleasant company.

[merijn]

Then again, most other Western countries haven't done that well at encouraging minority languages. In the UK, Welsh speakers suffered the Welsh Not in school, which is symbolic of an attitude that Welsh was not fit for education. It was also not to be used in courts of law until 1942, and that was only under a sort of "equal opportunities" ruling for those who could not use English. The nation shrugged as Cornish died, and Scottish Gaelic has only had statutory basis for six years.

Still, there's really no comparison. Yeah, most Western countries were shitty about encouraging multiculturalism until relatively recently; centralisation and assimilation was the prevailing ethos (largely--it must be said--due to the example of France, which was a pioneer in this respect). But the point is that as more and more of them have changed their tune, France's unyielding hostility looks particularly retrograde. When you make a list of other countries which are actively hostile toward local linguistic varieties, you don't find it in very pleasant company.

I recall that there was a European treaty for the protection of minority languages that France as only EU member refused to sign, though that was about 10 years ago, so they may have signed it since. In many areas in Europe dialects and minority languages don't have a good name, in that speaking them is associated with backwardness and lack of sophistication by the general public, (it is no coincidence that there is a tv-series and series of movies in the Netherlands, whose main characters are not the brightest coins in the fountain, and on top of that incredibly rude, speak in a Noord-Brabant dialect, and not standard Dutch). But that is a whole different ballgame from the hostility by the government of France towards dialects and minority languages. Here in the Netherlands, the official name of formerly the province of Friesland now is the Frisian Fryslân, something which is unthinkable in France.

[linguoboy]

I recall that there was a European treaty for the protection of minority languages that France as only EU member refused to sign, though that was about 10 years ago, so they may have signed it since.

"France, although a signatory, has been constitutionally blocked from ratifying the Charter in respect of the languages of France."/"Cependant, depuis sa signature, la France n'a pas ratifié la Charte ; ces engagements sont donc restés lettre morte jusqu'ici."

[Ars Lande]

Then again, most other Western countries haven't done that well at encouraging minority languages. In the UK, Welsh speakers suffered the Welsh Not in school, which is symbolic of an attitude that Welsh was not fit for education. It was also not to be used in courts of law until 1942, and that was only under a sort of "equal opportunities" ruling for those who could not use English. The nation shrugged as Cornish died, and Scottish Gaelic has only had statutory basis for six years.

Still, there's really no comparison. Yeah, most Western countries were shitty about encouraging multiculturalism until relatively recently; centralisation and assimilation was the prevailing ethos (largely--it must be said--due to the example of France, which was a pioneer in this respect). But the point is that as more and more of them have changed their tune, France's unyielding hostility looks particularly retrograde. When you make a list of other countries which are actively hostile toward local linguistic varieties, you don't find it in very pleasant company.

I'd say it's more like active indifference than active hostility. As the issue, by nature, is irrelevant in Paris, its fate is national indifference.
(As far as French politics and media are concerned, if it didn't happen in Paris, it never happened at all. Exceptions are made only for child abuse cases.)
Plus, it allows politicians to proclaim their attachment to 'the values of the Republic' (whatever they may be) without any noticeable electoral impact.

[ol bofosh]

This is an interesting thread. I didn't realise that France had such an attitude to its minority languages.

Spanish is funny because it has only been called "Spanish" since it was used as a tool for Empire building, something that many minorities, like Catalans, baulk at. So I call it castellano in Spanish, just to be politically correct, but usually call it Spanish in English because not many people know it as Castilian.

Catalan has had a boost, being seen as co-official in Spain (along with several other Iberian languages) and by law the schools have to use Catalan to teach, so my 3yr old nephew has Spanish and some French (and bits of English thrown in) at home, but Catalan is spoken at school.

The problem I read is that there aren't enough people that speak Catalan well enough to be able to teach with it. The ideal that teachers speak Catalan in most or all their classes in Catalonia is stretched a bit thin, which is a different problem to other minority languages.

It's interesting to be in a country that has seen some bad repression of its minority languages, and yet found its fortunes changed in the opposite direction within half a century. Shame about France though

[Ser]

Spanish is funny because it has only been called "Spanish" since it was used as a tool for Empire building, something that many minorities, like Catalans, baulk at. So I call it castellano in Spanish, just to be politically correct, but usually call it Spanish in English because not many people know it as Castilian.

Beware "español" is how people in northern Latin America (Mexico, El Salvador, Colombia...) call it though.

[Izambri]

The problem I read is that there aren't enough people that speak Catalan well enough to be able to teach with it.

Hmmm, what?

[Izambri]

Spanish is funny because it has only been called "Spanish" since it was used as a tool for Empire building, something that many minorities, like Catalans, baulk at. So I call it castellano in Spanish, just to be politically correct, but usually call it Spanish in English because not many people know it as Castilian.

Beware "español" is how people in northern Latin America (Mexico, El Salvador, Colombia...) call it though.

And in Spain too, but both español and castellano are common. And in Catalan it's called castellà by tradition.

[ol bofosh]

Beware "español" is how people in northern Latin America (Mexico, El Salvador, Colombia...) call it though.

I don't see myself moving there any time soon. I live in Catalonia, so I have to pick what I call it and to who carefully lol.

The problem I read is that there aren't enough people that speak Catalan well enough to be able to teach with it.

Hmmm, what?

Using comercial language, there's too much demand (from the law) to match it with supply. There's a lot of people that speak Catalan, but not all of them teach and not all of them are capable of teaching in Catalan to academic standards. At least that is how I have read it.

And in Spain too, but both español and castellano are common. And in Catalan it's called castellà by tradition.

And called by that by political bent. Centrist or regionalist?

[Salmoneus]

The situation of Catalan is unusual, in that it's a 'dialect' that is spoken in what has for a very long time been a major urban area, and that has for some time now been almost at the level of the national capital. It gives it immense prestige, compared to other dialects, most of which lost their control over big cities a long time ago. If we think about Europe not as countries, but as cities, Barcelona is by some measures the sixth-largest city in the EU, only slightly behind Madrid. That gives it a lot of clout. Of course, we can then ask why we don't have similarly powerful dialects in the Ruhr, Stuttgart, Munich, and Milan. One reason may be the relatively recent unification of Italy and Germany - political unification was accompanied by sweeping popular enthusiasm for unity that, in the case of Italy at least, dealt a big blow to the dialects.

In the UK, and probably elsewhere, modern urbanisation has accelerated the breakup of the language, in the sense of strengthening regional dialects and encouraging them to diverge from the standard - but as these dialects have no written tradition, they are not considered languages in their own right; meanwhile the more divergent dialects, which were mostly found in rural areas, are dying out. Factors like the early unification of England and the dominance of London probably explain why those dialects weren't found so much in the cities. [So I guess Catalan may be due to Spain hitting the goldilocks point for unification: late enough that catalan had developed its own literature and prestige, but early enough that catalan wasn't swept away in a wave of nationalism.]

France, you might think, should have hit that point as well - but maybe the dominance of Paris has to be considered? It's almost true that if something doesn't happen in Paris it doesn't happen - or at least that if it doesn't happen in Paris it happens in Not Paris, there being no specific alternative place for it to happen. Paris is the second-largest city in Europe; other french cities don't appear until places 33, 59, 66, 86, and so on. German cities, on the other hand, are found in places 5, 6, 11, 14, 17, 19, 28, 37, 42, 43, 44, 49, 71, 72, 73, 75, and so on. Paris dominates France demographically (as well as in every other way) to an overwhelming extent.

[jmcd]

Well there are strong dialects in the Ruhr and Munich, as mentioned above; it's just they're actually dialects and not separate languages like Catalan and Castilian.

Your generally point of demographic dominance being related to linguistic dominance does seem to work though.