On Spanish post-alveolars/palatals

[Ser]

From this thread, so not to horribly derail it...

This and the palatal stop don't bother me near as much, given there are languages like Spanish/French/Italian, which have one or two palatals with no others in that row/column.

Actually, this is one of those things that have always seemed pretty weird to me about Spanish... The traditional way to transcribe ‹ñ›, ‹ch› and non-lenited consonant ‹y› are [ɲ], [t͡ʃ] and [ɟ͡ʝ] respectively. John Lipski, at least, says that my dialect has [d͡ʒ] for non-lenited consonant ‹y›, so supposedly I end up with [ɲ], [t͡ʃ] and [d͡ʒ] for my dialect.

But the thing is, I'd swear I pronounce them in the same place of articulation. Dunno whether to call them "postalveolar" (so [n̠], [t͡ʃ] and [d͡ʒ]) or "palatal" (so [ɲ], [c͡ç] and [ɟ͡ʝ]) though. And dunno whether it even really matters that much, because the mouth is so mushy anyway and there isn't a clear division between the two. Maybe the ones who started the tradition of transcribing them as [ɲ], [t͡ʃ] and [ɟ͡ʝ] thought "[c͡ç]" looked too ugly or something?

Have any of you guys here heard/seen any criticism of the traditional way of transcribing these three? What do other native Spanish speakers on the forum say? If tradition says your dialect has [ɲ], [t͡ʃ] and [ɟ͡ʝ] (Izo?), is your ‹ch› truly pronounced more towards the front than ‹ñ› and non-lenited consonant ‹y›?

[lctrgzmn]

My <ñ> and <ch> are pretty standard to be honest. They never stray away from [ɲ] and [t͡ʃ]. However, I do notice that my <y> and <ll>, which having undergone yeísmo due to my accent, alternate between [j], [ɟ͡ʝ], and [d͡ʒ]. I've yet to notice any particular reason for these alternations, and they do in fact seem quite arbitrary. Growing up though, I did have an aunt that was always rather set on differentiating <y> as [ɟ͡ʝ] and <ll> as [ʝ].

I don't really know what goes on, but it's (kind of) akin to the lenition of [d] to [ð] and to [β] that also occurs in my own dialect of Spanish.

[Travis B.]

But the thing is, I'd swear I pronounce them in the same place of articulation. Dunno whether to call them "postalveolar" (so [n̠], [t͡ʃ] and [d͡ʒ]) or "palatal" (so [ɲ], [c͡ç] and [ɟ͡ʝ]) though. And dunno whether it even really matters that much, because the mouth is so mushy anyway and there isn't a clear division between the two. Maybe the ones who started the tradition of transcribing them as [ɲ], [t͡ʃ] and [ɟ͡ʝ] thought "[c͡ç]" looked too ugly or something?

I am not a Spanish-speaker, but have you considered that these might be alveolopalatal, so hence [n̠̻] (that should be retracted and laminal), [t͡ɕ], [d͡ʑ] respectively?

[Whimemsz]

However, I do notice that my <y> and <ll>, which having undergone yeísmo due to my accent, alternate between [j], [ɟ͡ʝ], and [d͡ʒ]. I've yet to notice any particular reason for these alternations, and they do in fact seem quite arbitrary.

I'm not a native speaker, but living in Texas (near Conroe, btw, since I see you're from Katy) and hearing Mexican Spanish frequently enough, my impression is that the affricate realization (it seems to me like it's often something in between [ɟʝ] and [dʒ] -- maybe [dʝ]? But it could be alveopalatal. I dunno...) is most frequent initially, and in certain common words like yo and ya. Is that the case for you at all?

I don't really know what goes on, but it's (kind of) akin to the lenition of [d] to [ð] and to [β] that also occurs in my own dialect of Spanish.

That happens in every dialect of Spanish, at least as spoken by native speakers.

[Herr Dunkel]

(it seems to me like it's often something in between [ɟʝ] and [dʒ] -- maybe [dʝ]? But it could be alveopalatal. I dunno...)

I'd say it's more akin to [dʑ] from what youtube lies about.

[AnTeallach]

My impression of the y/ll affricate from when I've heard it (including from Spanish speakers using it in English words like you and yesterday) is of something similar to the English [dʒ] but less sibilant, and I've heard both European and Mexican Spanish speakers using it. However I can make sounds that meet that description with quite a range of tongue positions.

NB I think [ɲ] can be used for a palatalised postalveolar nasal, i.e. something with a similar POA to [dʒ] or [dʑ], e.g. in Polish.

[lctrgzmn]

However, I do notice that my <y> and <ll>, which having undergone yeísmo due to my accent, alternate between [j], [ɟ͡ʝ], and [d͡ʒ]. I've yet to notice any particular reason for these alternations, and they do in fact seem quite arbitrary.

I'm not a native speaker, but living in Texas (near Conroe, btw, since I see you're from Katy) and hearing Mexican Spanish frequently enough, my impression is that the affricate realization (it seems to me like it's often something in between [ɟʝ] and [dʒ] -- maybe [dʝ]? But it could be alveopalatal. I dunno...) is most frequent initially, and in certain common words like yo and ya. Is that the case for you at all?

This actually does seem a little more accurate. I want to say it's x phoneme initially, x phoneme medially, etc., etc., but it seems certain words are preset with certain variations. For example, yo, the subjective first person singular pronoun is pronounced (at least by me and all of my family members, can't speak for the rest of Latin America and/or Spain) [dʒ]. Of course, in slow speech I think it retracts to a typical [j] or [ʝ].

Bah. Time to observe.

That happens in every dialect of Spanish, at least as spoken by native speakers.

I wouldn't say that for every particular lenition. I do see [d] becoming [ð] in many to most (if not all) dialects, but I also know a lot of people that always pronounce as and never change it to [β].

[chris_notts]

My girlfriend, from Andalucía, does seem to have [j] for <y>, at least in "yo", but ll is generally pronounced as a fricative, i.e. [ʝ]. I just asked her to say a couple of words to check, and that's what it sounds like to me. I don't think I've ever heard her produce <ll> as an affricate, or at least I don't remember it. I explicitly checked about the word initial case by asking her to say "llamar" and got [ʝ].

EDIT: this is based on asking her to say a few words, so obviously it's not conclusive.

[Whimemsz]

That happens in every dialect of Spanish, at least as spoken by native speakers.

I wouldn't say that for every particular lenition. I do see [d] becoming [ð] in many to most (if not all) dialects, but I also know a lot of people that always pronounce as and never change it to [β].

Where are those people from? The only place I knew about where that happened was Yucatan, but I always thought that was because many Spanish-speakers there speak it as a second-language...

(Apparently though, it also happens in a few other places like parts of Ecuador, where there's significant numbers of non-native speakers of Spanish, according to John Lipski)

[Ser]

My <ñ> and <ch> are pretty standard to be honest. They never stray away from [ɲ] and [t͡ʃ]. However, I do notice that my <y> and <ll>, which having undergone yeísmo due to my accent, alternate between [j], [ɟ͡ʝ], and [d͡ʒ]. I've yet to notice any particular reason for these alternations, and they do in fact seem quite arbitrary. Growing up though, I did have an aunt that was always rather set on differentiating <y> as [ɟ͡ʝ] and <ll> as [ʝ].

I don't really know what goes on, but it's (kind of) akin to the lenition of [d] to [ð] and to [β] that also occurs in my own dialect of Spanish.

My issue is the place (or places?) of articulation of these phones, not really any lenition involved... But yeah, as I've said multiple times before, I've never really understood why in the Traditional Transcription of Spanish consonant ‹y› (and yeísta ‹ll›) are usually have the phoneme transcribed as /ʝ/ (suggesting the lenited allophone is more prominent than the non-lenited one, as opposed to /b, d, g/?), with [ɟʝ] as an allophone. (Then make further changes for other dialects, e.g. Lipski talks about my dialect as having [j] and [dʒ], Rioplatense is said to have [ʃ~ʒ] (sheísmo/zheísmo) and [dʒ], etc. Why don't people refer to it as /ɟʝ/?

I am not a Spanish-speaker, but have you considered that these might be alveolopalatal, so hence [n̠̻] (that should be retracted and laminal), [t͡ɕ], [d͡ʑ] respectively?

Nope, I hardly "feel" they sound or that I pronounce them like that... At least from studying a little Mandarin and Cantonese, whose [t͡ɕ] my brain does interpret as "something sounding like [ts] and [tS] 'at the same time'", my [tS] doesn't seem to be like it...

On the other hand, the [tS] from a couple of Spaniards I've met sounded... rather fronted, and you can already see comments in books on Spanish about it. (Maybe this is why you're suggesting it though...)

NB I think [ɲ] can be used for a palatalised postalveolar nasal, i.e. something with a similar POA to [dʒ] or [dʑ], e.g. in Polish.

This sort of sound is apparently relevant in Japanese linguistics, where the use of "[n̠ʲ]" is canon...

That happens in every dialect of Spanish, at least as spoken by native speakers.

I wouldn't say that for every particular lenition. I do see [d] becoming [ð] in many to most (if not all) dialects, but I also know a lot of people that always pronounce as and never change it to [β].

Where are those people from? The only place I knew about where that happened was Yucatan, but I always thought that was because many Spanish-speakers there speak it as a second-language...

(Apparently though, it also happens in a few other places like parts of Ecuador, where there's significant numbers of non-native speakers of Spanish, according to John Lipski)

And it's also reported to happen in the Spanish among people of Equatorial Guinea (a place of recent language contact too, with Fang)... Note that it's reported among native speakers of Spanish in these three areas too, not only non-natives. More support for linguists attacking those who don't believe in substrata.

Well, my comments in the OP and lctrgzmn are after all pretty "impressionistic", so liable to defects...

[lctrgzmn]

That happens in every dialect of Spanish, at least as spoken by native speakers.

I wouldn't say that for every particular lenition. I do see [d] becoming [ð] in many to most (if not all) dialects, but I also know a lot of people that always pronounce as and never change it to [β].

Where are those people from? The only place I knew about where that happened was Yucatan, but I always thought that was because many Spanish-speakers there speak it as a second-language...

(Apparently though, it also happens in a few other places like parts of Ecuador, where there's significant numbers of non-native speakers of Spanish, according to John Lipski)

My mom, for one, always pronounces her 's, and Spanish is her first language. The same can be said for most of the people in my family who don't speak much English. In fact, here it's very common for a Mexican accent in English to entirely lack [v] due to the prevalence of . Although some accents due trigger lenition in /b/ (and other phonemes), not all do.

[Ser]

My mom, for one, always pronounces her 's, and Spanish is her first language. The same can be said for most of the people in my family who don't speak much English. In fact, here it's very common for a Mexican accent in English to entirely lack [v] due to the prevalence of . Although some accents due trigger lenition in /b/ (and other phonemes), not all do.

No idea what you're talking about, nope... I must say it'd pretty weird not to have lenition in /b/ but having it in the other three. Where is your madre exactly from?

[lctrgzmn]

My mom, for one, always pronounces her 's, and Spanish is her first language. The same can be said for most of the people in my family who don't speak much English. In fact, here it's very common for a Mexican accent in English to entirely lack [v] due to the prevalence of . Although some accents due trigger lenition in /b/ (and other phonemes), not all do.

No idea what you're talking about, nope... I must say it'd pretty weird not to have lenition in /b/ but having it in the other three. Where is your madre exactly from?

Really? Have you ever been to Mexico? It's all over there. She's from Tamaulipas, Mexico, though she spent some time in Mexico City, too.

[Travis B.]

I am not a Spanish-speaker, but have you considered that these might be alveolopalatal, so hence [n̠̻] (that should be retracted and laminal), [t͡ɕ], [d͡ʑ] respectively?

Nope, I hardly "feel" they sound or that I pronounce them like that... At least from studying a little Mandarin and Cantonese, whose [t͡ɕ] my brain does interpret as "something sounding like [ts] and [tS] 'at the same time'", my [tS] doesn't seem to be like it...

On the other hand, the [tS] from a couple of Spaniards I've met sounded... rather fronted, and you can already see comments in books on Spanish about it. (Maybe this is why you're suggesting it though...)

Actually, by alveolopalatal I meant something very different from what you take it to be here; it is nothing like pronouncing [ts] and [tʃ] simultaneously. Rather, it is essentially a laminal postalveolar, where somewhere about the end of the blade of the tongue is used to articulate at a postalveolar POA while the body of the tongue is raised towards the palate, and where conversely the tip of the tongue is lowered to be behind the lower teeth. Hence [n̠ʲ] (another way to transcribe it), [tɕ], and [dʑ] are effectively somewhat fronted, and for the latter two sibilant, versions of [ɲ], [cç], and [ɟʝ].

I am personally familiar with alveolopalatal consonants because the English I am used to has them in alternation with palatoalveolar consonants (and similarly with laminal alveolar and apical alveolar consonants respectively), which is allophonic but which I have picked up on to the point that I now normally transcribe them where present in my English (with normal palatoalveolars being transcribed with the usual postalveolar symbols).

[Ser]

Actually, by alveolopalatal I meant something very different from what you take it to be here; it is nothing like pronouncing [ts] and [tʃ] simultaneously. Rather, it is essentially a laminal postalveolar, where somewhere about the end of the blade of the tongue is used to articulate at a postalveolar POA while the body of the tongue is raised towards the palate, and where conversely the tip of the tongue is lowered to be behind the lower teeth.

It could be that I pronounce them that way, yup, but I'm not sure.

Hence [n̠ʲ] (another way to transcribe it), [tɕ], and [dʑ] are effectively somewhat fronted, and for the latter two sibilant, versions of [ɲ], [cç], and [ɟʝ].

Can you rephrase this? (I don't parse it: even adding an -s to "silibant" (typo?), I'm unsure how "versions of...[ɟʝ]" fits the rest of the sentence.)

[ná'oolkiłí]

The second and third commas demarcate a parenthetical phrase. He's saying that [n̠ʲ] is effectively a fronted version of [ɲ], and that [tɕ dʑ] are fronted versions of [cç ɟʝ] that are also sibilant.

I'd say your intuition that [ɕ] is between [s] and [ʃ] is correct acoustically, but Travis is right saying articulatorily that isn't the case. Sibilants are very interesting phonetically... there's so much variation from language to language.

[Ser]

The second and third commas demarcate a parenthetical phrase.

Now I understand!

I'd say your intuition that [ɕ] is between [s] and [ʃ] is correct acoustically, but Travis is right saying articulatorily that isn't the case. Sibilants are very interesting phonetically... there's so much variation from language to language.

I'm not saying "between [s] and [ʃ]", but [s] and [ʃ] at the same time, and referring to Mandarin and Cantonese [(t)ɕ] specifically. It could be that Spanish /tʃ/ can be better described as "[tɕ]", but then it'd be a [tɕ] different to me from the other [tɕ] I hear from a speaker of Mando or Canto.

[Ser]

My mom, for one, always pronounces her 's, and Spanish is her first language. The same can be said for most of the people in my family who don't speak much English. In fact, here it's very common for a Mexican accent in English to entirely lack [v] due to the prevalence of . Although some accents due trigger lenition in /b/ (and other phonemes), not all do.

No idea what you're talking about, nope... I must say it'd pretty weird not to have lenition in /b/ but having it in the other three. Where is your madre exactly from?

Really? Have you ever been to Mexico? It's all over there. She's from Tamaulipas, Mexico, though she spent some time in Mexico City, too.

I was just listening to this recording of a speaker from Tamaulipas, and I don't hear what you talk about at all. Just hear her saying "Nuevo Laredo de Tamaulipas" (which she seems to pronounce [nwe.β̞o ˈla.ɾjo], interestingly), or "preventiva" at different parts of the video (which sounds almost like [pɾe.en.ˈti.β̞a].

This other recording (much more formal in tone, however) from another speaker from Tamaulipas doesn't show a lack of lenition in /b/ either.

[lctrgzmn]

My mom, for one, always pronounces her 's, and Spanish is her first language. The same can be said for most of the people in my family who don't speak much English. In fact, here it's very common for a Mexican accent in English to entirely lack [v] due to the prevalence of . Although some accents due trigger lenition in /b/ (and other phonemes), not all do.

No idea what you're talking about, nope... I must say it'd pretty weird not to have lenition in /b/ but having it in the other three. Where is your madre exactly from?

Really? Have you ever been to Mexico? It's all over there. She's from Tamaulipas, Mexico, though she spent some time in Mexico City, too.

I was just listening to this recording of a speaker from Tamaulipas, and I don't hear what you talk about at all. Just hear her saying "Nuevo Laredo de Tamaulipas" (which she seems to pronounce [nwe.β̞o ˈla.ɾjo], interestingly), or "preventiva" at different parts of the video (which sounds almost like [pɾe.en.ˈti.β̞a].

This other recording (much more formal in tone, however) from another speaker from Tamaulipas doesn't show a lack of lenition in /b/ either.

I didn't say they all had a lack of lenition, I just said it was common over there. However, thinking on it a little more, I can think of some instances where it would sound silly to not have lenition, even though said instances could often get away with not being lenited. Just my observation.

Edit: Have you noticed that the lenited consonants tend to disappear in rapid speech? I speak mostly for [d] and , but I've heard "bueno" pronounced as [weno], "abuelita" as [awelita], and then there's the slang-esque pronunciation of "-ado" as "ao", e.g., "pelado" as "pelao", "cuñado" as "cuñao", etc.

[Ser]

I didn't say they all had a lack of lenition, I just said it was common over there. However, thinking on it a little more, I can think of some instances where it would sound silly to not have lenition, even though said instances could often get away with not being lenited. Just my observation.

I'd really like it if you could get around making a recording of your mother... I mean, I've read of the existence of people who don't lenite their /b/ (or the other three related phonemes), but I've never actually got to meet or hear any. Of course, telling them they're being recorded prompts them to somewhat change their pronunciation, but it's still inevitable they won't be consistent in their changes.

At least, last time I recorded a conversation between me and my mother (for another forum), she seemed to pronounce more /s/ as alveolar than usual, though you could still hear plenty of /s/ being "aspirated" (or deleted, or "merging" with the following /b, d, g, ʝ/).

Edit: Have you noticed that the lenited consonants tend to disappear in rapid speech? I speak mostly for [d] and , but I've heard "bueno" pronounced as [weno], "abuelita" as [awelita], and then there's the slang-esque pronunciation of "-ado" as "ao", e.g., "pelado" as "pelao", "cuñado" as "cuñao", etc.

This is pretty well documented stuff, yup...